Re: SPAM: beware of CRL! you are LOOSING EMAIL and LOOSING CONTACTS

[Paul A Vixie <paul () vix com>]

> Thought this might interest some of you guys, especially those at CRL and 
> one other fella...... >;)

yeah, i saw it, and since you sent the original here, i'll include my reply.

> BTW, I am the messenger, not the author.....

well, i'm the author of the message below:

Path: news.isc.org!not-for-mail
From: Paul Vixie <vixie () wisdom rc vix com>
Newsgroups: 
ba.internet,alt.internet,alt.internet.access,alt.internet.commerce,alt.internet.providers.america,alt.internet.services
Subject: Re: beware of CRL! you are LOOSING EMAIL and LOOSING CONTACTS
Followup-To: ba.internet
Date: 12 Feb 1998 23:00:24 -0800
Organization: Vixie Enterprises
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This is totally cool.  I havn't seen this quality of writing and thinking
since the days of the Internet Bag Lady.  Allow me to introduce myself, I
am Internet Lord Paul Vixie and I've got CRL wrapped around my little finger
(or so it says below, so it must be true).  Or is it?  Let's look CLOSER:

dabao38 () hotmail com writes:

> Why C R L SUCKS AND YOU TOO SHOULD DROP THEM: 1) Your email address at
> CRL only works with the portion of the world THEY like. Did you know they
> block off many servers and all of their users from being able to reach
> you because someone onced might have used that machine to send commercial
> email? And they will NOT tell you this nor admit to it until you've
> mysteriously lost touch with your contacts and loved ones. A few
> examples: kiss your love ones goodbye from hotmail.com, juno.com,
> hinet.net (this would be the entire nation for Taiwan). 

They aren't blocking by domain name, at least the MAPS RBL does not do so
and unless CRL is doing something over and above subscribing to the MAPS
RBL, what are disappearing are specific network address blocks, not domain
names.

>                                                         They say they are
> doing this to fight spam, ironically a lot of spam is actually generated
> from CRL.

That's different spam.  And if you complain about spam coming from CRL, they
WILL cut off the spammers, no matter whether they are dialup spammers, leased
line spammers, or web hosted spammers.  This is better than what most ISP's
are willing to do.  I have seen CRL make a Money Losing Decision just to get
rid of a spammer.

>            More like kissing up to this self appointed Internet Lord Paul
> Vixie who runs the Real Time Blackhole List (the list which does this
> emai censoring and blocking, with out any concern for end users'
> connectivity). 

That much is certainly true.  Me not being spammed has a higher value, to me,
than the connectivity of any (other) end user.  OK, so you caught me -- I am
not a consumer advocate and I am not an altruist.  I'm doing the MAPS RBL for
entirely selfish reasons: I Don't Like Spam.  But let's see where this goes:

>               This guy prettymuch figured he has the power to decide who
> you can and can not get email from. 

Absolutely false.  I don't have, and I don't want, any such power.  I block
access from networks whose owners are irresponsible about keeping spam from
entering the Internet.  Now as it turns out, 122 other network owners have
learned that we (myself and four dedicated/knowledgeable volunteers) do a
hell of a lot of research to find out whether any given network's owner is
irresponsible enough to warrant blocking.  So when I block somebody, 122
other network owners block that same somebody, in real time.  (And when we
unblock somebody, 122 other network owners unblock them at the same time.)

Then there are the estimated 3000 mail relays who inquire of our database in
real time, using DNS, without actually subscribing to the (currently free)
update service.  All in all, being listed as an irresponsible network on the
MAPS RBL is very bad for said network's connectivity.

But I honestly do not care who YOU get mail from.  I care who *I* get mail
from, and many ISP's (CRL in your case) have decided that they want to "share
fate" with me in this regard since they trust my judgement in these matters.

If you think that CRL is wrong to trust my judgement in these matters, then
you probably need a new ISP.  But I don't think it's quite fair to say that
"CRL sucks" -- what's really true is that CRL wants their mail relays to be
up more often then they are down, and they can't guarantee that if there is
an unlimited amount of spam coming through them.  With the MAPS RBL in force,
it is a *limited* amount of spam instead.  I'd say that this shows good
operational priorities on CRL's part, and that your next ISP may not have
mail relays nearly as reliable as CRL's.

>                                         And they are banking on you NOT
> FINDING OUT about it. 

Not at all.  I talk to the press as often as they call me, and I give lots
of interviews, several of which have been published.  I *want* the world to
know about the MAPS RBL.  See http://maps.vix.com/ for background material
including subscription information.

>      ... 3) Tech support? What tech support? When I confronted them about
> the missing email they actually yelled at me (after 10-15 emails to get a
> response, phone calls? forget it..) 

Did they yell at you right off, or did you rant (as above and below) at them
first, and fail to understand five or six retellings of the same explaination?

>                                   and told me it was my contacts' fault
> that they subscribed to the "bad, bad spamming company for ISP). Imagin
> if your phone company told you you can not get calls from your mom
> because she lives in an area with a phone company they did not like..
> Since when did CRL figure out dictatorship was in again? 

It's not a question of "like."  The networks on the MAPS RBL are accessories
before and after the fact to "theft of service" and if I let them reach my
network (in order, for example, to get mail from someone user of theirs whom
I have every reason to want to get mail from), then their ISP's irresponsibilty
causes my host and network resources to be spent in ways which are expressly
against my will.  This is a self defense measure, not a matter of taste.
-- 
Paul Vixie
La Honda, CA
<paul () vix com>                       "Many NANOG members have been around
pacbell!vixie!paul               longer than most." --Jim Fleming