Re John Perry Barlow: Internet has broken political

[David Farber <dave () farber net>]

Begin forwarded message:

From: Newmedia () aol com
Date: June 7, 2010 6:14:55 AM EDT
To: dave () farber net, ip () v2 listbox com
Subject: Re: [IP] Re John Perry Barlow: Internet has broken political

Joly:
 
C'mon that's just silly wannabe thinking.  We have been "debating" this issue of net-based direct democracy for a very 
long time -- at least since the early 90's on Compriv and other lists.  Just saying something doesn't make it so.  Have 
you ever been involved in a Congressional debate or a conference committee markup?
 
The greater public are "fools" - refer to my earlier post commenting on Bob Taylor's observations about IQ scales and 
the Internet -- with much more important things to worry about in their own lives than government "policy."  Asking the 
average person to figure out what is the best choice among a series of bad alternatives is an affront and a cruelty.  
It's nasty and disrespectful.
 
Masses of people can be mobilized for protests (as in the elite-vs-elite conflict in Thailand) but not for policy 
"interventions."  The one thing that the Internet actually DOES do is to break down the influence of MASS MEDIA.  It's 
everyone for themselves.  There is no consensus and, by the very nature of the medium, there can't be one.  People have 
"friends" and "followers" on the net, not policy debates.
 
Direct democracy advocates and conspiracy theorists have this in common -- they make things up because they have no 
idea how power actually operates in society.  There is a rich literature on power, classes and elites.  Please read and 
understand it before you make another ill-informed wish about how things ought to be.  Use the Net for what it's best 
at providing -- a FREE education.
 
Best,
 
Mark Stahlman
New York City
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 6/7/2010 1:40:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dfarber () me com writes:




Begin forwarded message:

> From: WWWhatsup <joly () dti net>
> Date: June 6, 2010 11:49:41 PM EDT
> To: dave () farber net
> Cc: ip <ip () v2 listbox com>
> Subject: Re: [IP] John Perry Barlow: Internet has broken political
>
> At OneWebDay 2009 in NYC Jason Breitbart, now with New America Foundation, gave a speech along the lines - 'Policy is 
> the new Literacy" - suggesting the days when the smoky backroom ruled are over. Citizens have increasing access to 
> government data and the means to analyze it. Ultimately perhaps even more so than government.
>
> This point seems entirely lost on Mr. Stahlman. The greater public IS the new ELITE that Barlow fronts.
>
> j.
>
> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 10:21 PM, Dave Farber <dfarber () me com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> > From: Newmedia () aol com
> > Date: June 4, 2010 12:30:42 PM EDT
> > To: dave () farber net
> > Subject: [Corrected] Re: [IP] John Perry Barlow: Internet has broken political
> >
> > Dave etal:
> >  
> > There he goes again!  Famous as a libertarian (and infamous as an LSD shaman), Barlow has been making this 
> > declaration for 15+ years and he's just as wrong today as he was with his "Declaration of Independence for 
> > Cyberspace" in 1996. 
> >  
> > Today Cyberspace is a battlefield, not an independent trans-national sphere.  Just ask Google.
> >  
> > Human social organizations -- large (i.e. nation-states) and small (i.e. non-profits like EFF) -- are all run by 
> > ELITES.  Everyone of them.  Read Art Kleiner's "Who Really Matters" if you would like an update on the reasons why 
> > this has always been true.  Or if you really want the full history, read Michael Mann's superb 2-volume "The Sources 
> > of Social Power."
> >  
> > At best, the "people" get to choose which elite they want to be in charge or, as often happens, the balance between 
> > the competing elites.  For instance, when they chose Baraka Obama, they were choosing the elite behind the 
> > non-Clinton-wing of the Democrats (i.e. the Carter group and their "globalist" backers.)
> >  
> > Barlow knows all this.  If you are against the nation-state, then you are "for" some sort of global government.  He 
> > has been around for long enough and has personally known many members of the elite (recall his very close friendship 
> > with JFK Jr.), so the question is which ELITE is he fronting for? 
> >  
> > Mark Stahlman
> > New York City
> >  
> > In a message dated 6/4/2010 10:11:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dave () farber net writes:
> >
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: dewayne () warpspeed com (Dewayne Hendricks)
> > Date: June 3, 2010 2:48:21 PM EDT
> > To: Dewayne-Net Technology List <xyzzy () warpspeed com>
> > Subject: [Dewayne-Net] John Perry Barlow: Internet has broken political system
> >
> > John Perry Barlow: Internet has broken political system
> > By Gautham Nagesh   - 06/03/10 01:17 PM ET
> > <http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/101273-john-perry-barlow-internet-has-broken-political-system>
> >
> > The deluge of information available on the Web has made the country ungovernable, according to Electronic Frontier 
> > Foundation co-founder John Perry Barlow.
> >
> > "The political system is broken partly because of Internet," Barlow said. "It's made it impossible to govern 
> > anything the size of the nation-state. We're going back to the city-state. The nation-state is ungovernably 
> > information-rich."
> >
> > Speaking at Personal Democracy Forum in New York on Thursday, Barlow said there is too much going on at every level 
> > in Washington, D.C., for the government to effectively handle everything on its plate. Instead, he advocated 
> > citizens organizing around the issues most important to them.
> >
> > Barlow also said that President Barack Obama's election, driven largely by small donations, has fundamentally 
> > changed American politics. He said a similar bottom-up structure is needed for governing as well.
> >
> > "It's not the second coming, everything won't get better overnight, but that made it possible to see a future where 
> > it wasn’t simply a matter of money to define who won these things," Barlow said. "The government could finally start 
> > belonging to people eventually."
> >
> > [snip]RSS Feed: <http://www.warpspeed.com/wordpress>
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
> WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com
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