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Re: maybe not djf AT&T the Web Spy? -- And Their Big Google Lie
From: David Farber <dave () farber net>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:59:36 -0400
Begin forwarded message: From: "Erich M." <me () quintessenz org> Date: August 15, 2008 2:49:22 PM EDT To: dave () farber net Subject: Re: [IP] AT&T the Web Spy? -- And Their Big Google Lie -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 David Farber wrote:
Servus Dave, for IP if you wish.
Begin forwarded message: From: Lauren Weinstein <lauren () vortex com> Date: August 14, 2008 6:28:16 PM EDT
AT&T's new Big Lie regarding Google is of particular note: "Advertising network operators such as Google have evolved beyond merely tracking consumer Web surfing activity on sites for which they have a direct ad-serving relationship. They now have the ability to observe a user's entire Web browsing experience at a granular level." -- Dorothy Attwood, AT&T senior vice president for public policy That second sentence is the kicker -- and is simply untrue. But it's crucial to AT&T's arguments that people *believe* it to be factual. Google does collect a great deal of data across their affiliated networks, via IP addresses, cookies (when enabled by users), and presumably URL referers as well. But this only includes sites somehow affiliated with the Google networks, and/or users who have installed various Google tools and enabled associated site reporting features. But it does *not* otherwise include all visited Web sites. Not by a long shot.
I would not be so sure at all of the latter, Lauren. Of course you are perfectly right that AT&T as your telco access providor can monitor all you do online. Unless you use a VPN, of course. As to Google: In the German speaking world about 80 percent of the leading newswebsites run Google analytics and/or google syndication resp. doubleclick.
See the link at the bottom to an online tool called ontraXX where you can look up whether the US news websites you read hand over all your usage data to Google. You should be surprised how many these are. German and Austrian top news sites send their visitors' clickstreams to Google for analysis, a service free of charges. Google sends then [incomplete] sites statistics back. According to EU data protection laws owners of websites have to inform their users about their usage data being handed over to third parties. Neither spiegel.de nor sueddeutsche.de, nor derstandard.at complied to that when I ran that news story two months ago. These EU media and many others also violate Google's policy over here in EU: to add a disclaimer - according to EU laws - on a "prominent place" on the respective website. Nobody likes to do that in a EU country, because the disclaimer starts with a sentence saying: This website uses Google Analytics, a service by Google, all your traffic data will be stored on a server in the Unites States of America". I asked a Google spokesperson in Hamburg, Germany a few months ago on that matter. What is Google doing to sanction those who violate Google's policy, by not adding the said disclaimer on a "prominent" place on their website? The Google spokesperson answered: "That is a good question. I will check into that matter". Obviously that checking is still going on as I have not heard of him again since mid june. If you read the leading print news media in Germany or Austria online, Google is more or less always watching you. All user traffic data go into one, big pot. I would not be surprised if the same was the case in the USA. The New York Times does it and the Washington Post does it well. LA Times uses all three Google services. There is no mentioning of Google in the privacy policy of the Washington Post -to pick one out - just a tiny Google logo a very long scroll away on the very bottom on the frontpage. The ontraXX.net machine description is - I'm afraid to tell - only in German. But that should not be a problem: Just type in the domain you wish to check and type in. Amongst "Externe Services" http://www.ontraxx.net/ The guy who owns that and the related notraxx.net, Walter Karban, managed to get an altavista license in 1997 and ran a self branded search engine called "austronaut.at" for a few years. He used that as a PR tool for his small company because the .at domain was not indexed that well on altavista or lycos, then. I am really on your side when bashing the circuit switched gang for their extensive network surveillance, Lauren. Know a bit about that topic. But: All our online _news_ consuming habits in one pot at Google? Servus from Europe Erich Moechel
Yet however much dispersed data Google collects in this manner, it still pales in comparison to the 100% of subscribers' unencrypted data directly available to ISPs via DPI, and the immense leverage ISPs have over their customers' total Internet access experience -- with bandwidth caps looming as yet another tool in the ISPs' anti-competitive arsenal. In fact, ISPs are the only entity with "the ability to observe a user's entire Web browsing experience at a granular level." And there's another factor too -- more of a gut feeling than a technical analysis. Do I have any issues with some of Google's data collection and related privacy practices? Sure, that's not a secret. But I've been encouraged by Google's continuing evolution in this area, and in particular by their willingness not to simply roll over in the face of outrageous demands for access to customer data. I realize that all corporations must obey the law, that financial considerations can always put privacy concerns at risk, and that all sorts of other complex factors enter into these situations. But all else being equal, I simply am more willing to trust my data to Google's current management philosophy than I am to the "Yes Sir, whatever you say, Sir! sensibilities of AT&T when it comes to outsiders wanting to pry into their subscribers' communications. I used to know quite a few great people at AT&T, especially at Bell Labs in its heyday. Perhaps it's something of a metaphor for where we are now that most of those brilliant individuals have been driven away from AT&T -- and in more than one case they're now at -- Google! The large ISPs want to remake the Internet in their own image. They see today -- right now -- as the best possible time to take total and complete ownership of Internet users and all associated data. They wish to make sure that the ISPs' positions as gatekeepers to the entire Internet in every respect are firmly entrenched within the oligarchy of the existing U.S. Internet access landscape. To help ensure outcomes favorable to these goals, it seems that some ISPs are willing to say or do just about anything, be it saddling their subscribers with unreasonable Terms of Service, implementing oppressive operational limitations and bandwidth caps, and in the case of AT&T, issuing distortions and lies about Google as well. Shame on you, Ma Bell. --Lauren-- Lauren Weinstein lauren () vortex com or lauren () pfir org Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800 http://www.pfir.org/lauren Co-Founder, PFIR - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org Co-Founder, NNSquad - Network Neutrality Squad - http://www.nnsquad.org Founder, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy Lauren's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com ------------------------------------------- Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/ Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
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- Re: maybe not djf AT&T the Web Spy? -- And Their Big Google Lie David Farber (Aug 15)
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- Re: maybe not djf AT&T the Web Spy? -- And Their Big Google Lie David Farber (Aug 16)
- Re: maybe not djf AT&T the Web Spy? -- And Their Big Google Lie David Farber (Aug 16)
- Re: maybe not djf AT&T the Web Spy? -- And Their Big Google Lie David Farber (Aug 16)