more on "if you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it]]

[Dave Farber <dave () farber net>]

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [IP] more on "if you are not doing anything wrong, why
should you worry about it]
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 13:42:31 -0800
From: Steven Hertzberg <stevenstevensteven () gmail com>
To: dave () farber net

How can one discuss this topic without taking a look back at the roots of
our political system?  It seems to me that the entire concept of government
or corporate surveillence contradicts our system's priniciples of freedom
from government-over-man; freedome of choice; and our right to be let alone
- in esssence, our unalienable rights.  For consideration, I've pieced
together some thoughts, using the Hamilton Long's "The Twelve Basic American
Principles" (http://www.lexrex.com):

The Principle: The traditional American philosophy teaches that Man, The
Individual, is endowed at birth with rights which are unalienable (God-given
rights - man has no power to to dispose of, by surrender, barter or
gift--his God-given rights).

An Endless List of Rights: To attempt to name all of these unalienable
rights--starting with "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" mentioned
in the Declaration of Independence--would be to start an endless list which
would add up to the whole of Man's Freedom (Freedom from
Government-over-Man).

Freedom of choice--is almost all-embracing:  Some idea of how vast the list
or rights would be is indicated by just one general freedom which leads into
almost all of Free Man's activities of daily living throughout life: freedom
of choice. This term stands for the right to do--and equally not to do--this
or that, as conscience, whim or judgement, taste or desire, of The
Individual may prompt from moment to moment, day by day, for as long as life
lasts; but always, of course, with due regard for the equal rights of others
and for the just laws expressive of the above-mentioned "just powers" of
government designed to help safeguard the equal rights of all Individuals.

Right To Be Let Alone:  In one sense, such freedom to choose involves Man's
right to be let alone, which is possessed by The Individual in keeping with
the Declaration and Constitution as against government: in enjoyment of his
unalienable rights, while respecting the equal rights of others and just
laws (as defined in Paragraph 5 above). This right to be let alone is the
most comprehensive of rights and the right of most prized by civilized men.
This right is, of course, also possessed as against all other Individuals,
all obligated to act strictly within the limits of their own equal rights.
Consequently any infringement of any Individual's rights is precluded.


________________________________
Steven Hertzberg
http://www.hertzberg.org





-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [IP] more on "if you are not doing anything wrong, why should
you worry about it
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 15:38:23 -0500
From: Howard C. Berkowitz <hcb () gettcomm com>
To: Dave Farber <dave () farber net>
References: <43F8D230.1090000 () farber net>

[for the list]

I don't consider surveillance cameras in public places necesarily to be
inappropriate, any more than cameras used for traffic monitoring and
accident detection are absolute intrusions on highways.  Even in public
places, however, the decision to put monitoring systems in place should be
openly discussed, approved at least by elected officials, and there needs to
be continuing oversight to avoid abuses.

As far as the "well, if you have nothing to hide..." argument for greater
intrusion, I share an experience, an anecdote, that I have really used to
get law enforcement people to rethink that cliche.

I had a police officer knock on my door, after a juvenile fight a few houses
down, and ask if he could "come in and look around."

"No."

"It's just routine."

"It's not routine for me, and since it's my house and you don't have a
warrant, my definition of routine applies."

"What, do you have something to hide?"

"Help me understand that concept, Detective. Standing on my porch, please
drop your trousers and, if any, undershorts."

"WHAAAAAT?"

"Well, if you have nothing to hide..."

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