more on Unclear on American Campus: What the Foreign Teacher Said

[David Farber <dave () farber net>]

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Mary Shaw" <mary.shaw () cs cmu edu>
Date: June 28, 2005 10:36:06 AM EDT
To: "Bradley Malin" <malin () cs cmu edu>, <Dave.Farber () cs cmu edu>
Subject: Re: [IP] more on  Unclear on American Campus: What the  
Foreign Teacher Said


Indeed.

Note that the highest grade on the Carnegie Mellon exam for language
proficiency for TAing is "ready to TA (but may need training in teaching
skills)".  According to the web site, the exam itself involved  
interacting
in a setting that simulates the classroom.

The teaching skills part is addressed by our teaching center, which  
offers
help with teaching skills to all students, independent of native  
language.

Mary


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bradley Malin" <malin () cs cmu edu>
To: <Dave.Farber () cs cmu edu>; "Mary Shaw" <mshaw () cmu edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [IP] more on Unclear on American Campus: What the Foreign
Teacher Said



> I recognize that many non-native English speaking students have
> difficulty in their everyday and academic communication skills.
> However, the NYTimes article seems quite an antithetical piece of work
> to their previous articles on foreign acceptance and tolerance.
>
> The problem is not one of "english", but communication in general.  As
> many people the list may have experiences as well, there are many  
> native
> English speaking students who can't communicate or educate in a
> competent manner.  In my daily dealings as a TA and student in various
> courses, I have found that some TA's with atrocious English are the  
> most
> intelligent and helpful when using a virtual proxy, such as email or
> instant messenger, where they have the time to properly translate and
> organize their thoughts.
>
> Granted, comprehension and communication via the English language is a
> necessary condition for educating in an English-speaking university.
> But it does not ensure an effective teacher, and this is merely one
> additional aspect of trainging effective TA's and teachers in general.
>
> -brad
>
>
> David Farber wrote:
>
>
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Mary Shaw <mary.shaw () gmail com>
> > Date: June 27, 2005 6:57:07 PM EDT
> > To: dave () farber net
> > Subject: Re: [IP] Unclear on American Campus: What the Foreign   
> > Teacher
> > Said
> > Reply-To: Mary Shaw <mary.shaw () gmail com>
> >
> >
> > Dave,
> >
> > The appropriate distinction is whether the student is a native   
> > speaker
> > of English.
> >
> > Since 1991, Pennsylvania has required all students whose native
> > language is not English to pass a language certification test before
> > being allowed to teach undergraduates. Carnegie Mellon applies the
> > requirement to teaching graduates as well.
> >
> > Carnegie Mellon explains the requirement as, "Any student who is  
> > not  a
> > native speaker of English should be tested regardless of   
> > citizenship.
> > US residency or citizenship is no guarantee of English   
> > proficiency. A
> > Canadian student who is a native English speaker does  not need the
> > test; a French speaking Canadian does."
> >
> > TOEFL, on the other hand, does not have "passing" grades, but rather
> > scores. Each admissions committee can decide for itself how to
> > interpret those scores and what other information to consider.
> >
> > Experience has showed us that English proficiency that is good enough
> > to succeed in a PhD program does not necessarily assure sufficient
> > proficiency to communicate effectively in a classroom.
> >
> > The Carnegie Mellon test has four possible outcomes that authorize
> > different levels of interaction with students, from "grading only" to
> > "ready to TA (but may need training in teaching skills)".
> >
> > Mary
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/27/05, David Farber <dave () farber net> wrote:
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Egor Kobylkin <egor () kobylkin com >
> > Date: June 27, 2005 5:47:26 PM EDT
> > To: dave () farber net
> > Subject: Re: Unclear on American Campus: What the Foreign Teacher  
> > Said
> >
> >
> >
> > > Many universities are trying to minimize the problem by
> > > creating programs to assess the English skills of
> > > international graduate students who are prospective teaching
> > > assistants and offering courses as needed
> >
> > Dave, my two cents.
> >
> > Too much buzz about the word "foreign". These teachers will probably
> > get  their Ph.D's soon, then green cards and then become US citizens
> > i.e. Americans. So the problem is not that they are coming from
> > abroad or something, but just their language skills. And interesting
> > enough, to get admitted to a serious university one has to pass TOEFL
> > and GMAT, both of them not the easiest test in spoken and written
> > English out there. One which passed TOEFL would be certainly in a
> > position to explain chemistry to a freshman.
> >
> > So either the universities in question could not afford rejecting the
> > grad students that failed or would have fail TOEFL, or something is
> > wrong with the language tests themselves.
> >
> > And anyway, with 50% of the foreign teachers in the university
> > system, it is not a question of the students being able to understand
> > teachers, but rather teachers to have enough motivation and abilities
> > to learn English. The notion "foreign" will not be helpful in
> > improving the quality of US education system, I believe.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Egor
> >
> >
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