Full Disclosure mailing list archives
[Professional IT Security Providers - Exposed] QuietMove ( F + )
From: secreview <secreview () hushmail com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 23:17:32 -0800 (PST)
Our first QuietMove review can be found here.QuietMove, located at http://www.quietmove.com is a Professional IT Security Services company that was founded by Adam Muntner, Jeffrey Rassas and James G. (Jim) Garvey, Jr. We’ve already performed one review of QuietMove but Adam Munter and his team didn’t like the review. As a result, we’ve gone back and revisited our data and are producing this second, hopefully more accurate review.Our first point of criticism is still the QuietMove web-site. Their services are poorly defined, and even somewhat contradictory. For example, under their Penetration Testing section they nearly bash the use of Automated tools. Shortly thereafter they go on to say that they offer services for nearly the same cost as “cookie-cutter” services.Well, we still have a problem with that. The overhead cost of using quality talent is always going to be far greater than the fees charged by vendors that sell automated scanning software. Any time someone tells us that they can offer “expert driven” services at the same price points or even nearly the same as a “cookie cutter” service, we say bullshit.Taking it a step further, we still stick by our previous opinion that the QuietMove website doesn’t have much to offer prospective customers in the way of useful information. The services shown are very poorly defined; the grammar is still horrible, and frankly the website is incomplete. Want to see what we mean, click on their “Social Engineering” tab under their service offerings; you’ll notice that there is no description. We hope that their website does not reflect the quality of their services.When Adam Muntner read our previous post where we commented on the QuietMove Website he responded in a reactive, emotional, and unprofessional manner. You can read his response to our first post here, insults and all. Unfortunately for Adam, his unprofessional attitude hurt QuietMove during this second review.Regardless, Adam did react to our website comments, and his reaction was as follows, verbatim:“Most of our clients are referred by others who are very satisfied with the work we perform. Not by the website. It doesn't get a lot of attention - were small but growing and focused on serving our clients. I know basic HTML seems like the pinnacle of achievement to you, but we aren't in the business of making pretty web pages. We discuss our methodology with our clients-we don't post it on the web. I know you were hoping to learn nimething. Hacking for dummies might be more your speed, after you perfect your Cunt and Paste skills.”During this second round of review, we were able to locate more information about Adam. We found several posts that Adam made to different mailing lists about FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Systems Administration, etc. We also found a rather nice PowerPoint presentation that Adam created that clearly defined specific security services. So we know that Adam is not an idiot, but we don’t know if he’s actually a security guru. We’re also wondering why Adam doesn’t create the same quality content for his QuietMove website as he did for his presentation?In tandem with Adam’s response to our initial review of QuietMove, Adam also had other friends and associates respond. One of those people was Andre Gironda who had a lot of great things to say about QuietMove, but also made the unfortunate mistake of tainting his credibility as a professional by directly attacking other vendors.Andre Gironda asked us who we are in one of his emails. He also indirectly accused us of exacting vengeance on QuietMove by performing a review. While we’ve never been accused of this before by any of our other review subjects, we feel that we should state for the record that this is not some sort of vengeance play.Andre Gironda also said that he can vouch for Adam’s 14 years of experience “and then some”. Apparently when Andre met Adam of QuietMove, Adam was working as a Unix Security Administrator for Unphamiliar. Territories (UPT), “a vulnerability research BBS that ran from 1989 – 1996. Also according to Andre Gironda “. It was a prominent place for information about vulnerability research. Many held it in higher regard than Phrack magazine or any leading website/magazine during that time period.”Sorry Andre, but we don’t agree with your statement about UPT. Even more importantly, we’re not sure how Adam’s experience as a Unix Security administrator (aka systems admin) will help him offer professional IT Security Services. Adam needs to be able to protect his clients from real world hackers, not from failed tape backups and disk crashes.Andre went on to say that many “small businesses such as QuietMove have a hard enough time staying alive in this industry.” He said “I suggest you pick on someone yourown size even if you have a legitimate problem with QuietMove or Adam.” Our response is that we have no problem with Adam or QuietMove. We found QuietMove by doing a google search for Penetration Testing.In a Different email Andre lost all credibility with us because he decided to directly attack other companies that we’ve reviewed that received higher grades. If you compare the score cards between QuietMove and the other company that Andre bashes, you’ll see why they got the good grade. Anyway, here’s what Andre had to say (we’ll comment later):“Look, you rated Denim Group as A-. You must either work there - orknow the guys. Dan Cornell is a moron compared to Adam Muntner - andhis code is certainly worse (e.g. Sprajax).Adam and team know Burp Suite, use manual web application testing - inaddition to traditional dynamic and static analysis.I have seen Adam and crew using Fortify Software's SCA and Tracertools. I have seen them using Hailstorm ARC and modifying theJavascript included in the SmartAttack library. I would call this abest-of-breed security testing methodology.I have worked for many small companies myself who do not use ANYautomated testing, including both open-source and commercial tools. Ithink this is stupid... and spent most of my time writing `for' loopsin shell just to get around their limitation on "not writing scriptsto automate things".I have also worked for small companies that "only" use scriptinglanguages, or only use "the best" scripting language (usually Ruby,Python, or Perl) and write all their own automated tools. This isalso stupid -- especially when existing toolsets have lots of greatcapability -- it's like re-inventing the wheel.Of course there are places that "only use" commercial automated tools,but I haven't actually met one yet. When I do -- I'll go ahead andpost an obnoxious review about them. More people will read mine thananything you do -- and with my name on it -- they are certainly boundto take it a lot more seriously.”Andre lost all credibility with our team when he insulted the Denim Group. We contacted the Denim Group and spoke directly with one of their founders when we did their review. Not only were we very impressed with them, but they provided us with great detail about their testing methodologies and service capabilities. Adam, Andre and the rest of the QuietMove team haven’t provided us with anything tangible yet, and we’ve asked. When we tried to contact them the first time we couldn’t get hold of them, same for the second.We’re still waiting to hear back from Adam at QuietMove with answers to our questions about the QuietMove services. If we hear back, we’ll modify this blog entry yet again to properly reflect what we feel is the truth. We’d also like to make the professional suggestion that QuietMove think about their professional image before they respond to anyone in public forum. Not only does their reaction not look good but it could make prospective customers turn away.Lastly, with respect to our comment about Marcin Wielgoszewski, a QuietMove consultant being “Green”, he confirmed that for us in an email. He wrote “You're right. I'm new and young and I'll be the first to admit it. We can't all be born security gurus, and I'm not trying to hide that, but me aside... what have you done besides hide behind your gmail accountand troll FD? Thanks for pointing out those two pages, two pages out of 100's thatwere posted a long time ago and yes, are very out of date.”All in all it is our professional opinion is still that QuietMove doesn’t have significant “strong” human talent behind their services. They appear to be a very small company run by someone that is not a “hacker” by nature but instead is a systems administrator or your advanced IT guy with a good understanding of Web Application Security. If you are looking to truly defend yourselves against malicious hackers then we suggest finding a different provider.Note: If we receive any information back from QuietMove, other than what we’ve received in emotional reactions, then we’ll consider adding that information to this review. If QuietMove can provide us with proof of capability then we will accurately reflect that capability here. We’re not in the business of bashing anyone even if they bash us or disrespect us. We are in the business of exposing Professional IT Security Service providers for what they really are to the best of our ability.If you feel that QuietMove deserves a better grade and can provide us with legitimate reasons as to why, then please comment and we’ll consider it. (Even after all of their insults.)Score Card (Click to Enlarge) -- Posted By secreview to Professional IT Security Providers - Exposed at 1/01/2008 10:38:00 PM
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Current thread:
- [Professional IT Security Providers - Exposed] QuietMove ( F + ) secreview (Jan 01)
- Re: [Professional IT Security Providers - Exposed] QuietMove ( F + ) Andre Gironda (Jan 02)
- Secreview re-review of quietmove ( F ---) Adam Muntner (Jan 02)
- Re: Secreview re-review of quietmove ( F ---) Adam Muntner (Jan 02)
- Message not available
- Fwd: Secreview re-review of quietmove ( F ---) Peter Dawson (Jan 02)
- Re: Fwd: Secreview re-review of quietmove ( F ---) Adam Muntner (Jan 02)
- Re: Fwd: Secreview re-review of quietmove ( F ---) Mukul Dharwadkar (Jan 02)
- Re: Fwd: Secreview re-review of quietmove ( F ---) William Lefkovics (Jan 02)
- Re: Secreview re-review of quietmove ( F ---) Adam Muntner (Jan 02)