Full Disclosure mailing list archives
RE: Professional Groups
From: James.Cupps () sappi com
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:06:05 -0500
Ok Definitely off topic ... But ... All of the arguments for unionizing have centered around job security and control of direction in the company to make life better. The later one is simple garbage. If you want to control the direction your company is taking get into management. The unions don't decide that even where they are effective and well run (and yes there are some despite the typical horror stories). As far as job security, outsourcing to other countries seems to be the key issue being discussed. Outsourcing itself is not much of a big deal it seems to be a cyclical trend at every company I have seen. For three to five years the trend is to "consolidate resources" (read bring it inside). Most companies try to do this during a time of labor surplus (now and for the next 6 months to a year). They are usually hampered by their bureaucracy so the process typically lags the rest of the economy by 1 to two years. Don't believe me? Compare the data at the Bureau of Labor Statistics with info from the Fed reserve. http://www.dol.gov/ http://www.federalreserve.gov/ This brings me to the next point the Fed is keeping loan rates at the 1% range for one reason at this point. To alter the trade deficit. (oh they won't say that, but the money supply problem is now over so the economy is now growing) They can do this because the inflation rate is mostly stable. It is mostly stable because most of our largest importing partners (in Asia) have tied their currency to the dollar (one key exception to this is Japan but that is an entire other subject). As the dollar grows weaker against the rest of the world currencies it becomes less and less expensive for them to buy from us. This will increase the attractiveness of producing within the US. At the same time it puts substantial pressure on other countries that have linked their currency to the dollar. They gain none of the benefits (most of them are already very cheap compared to the rest of the world) and gain all of the same detriments. They will have to alter their artificial exchange rates. Meanwhile they will be loosing talent in droves but not to the US but to EU, Australia and Japan. You have heard the term Brain Drain. What does all of this mean? It means that while international outsourcing is here to stay it will have a minimal actual impact on most of the service sector in the US. It also means that the fed has a scary amount of control over our lives. At least they are on our side. So no real reason to Unionize. Now I have to ask what does any of this do with Info Security let alone vulnerability exposure? James Cupps
-----Original Message----- From: Funk Jr, Joseph C. [mailto:jcfunkjr () co bucks pa us] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 11:12 AM To: Lan Guy; Daniel Sichel; full-disclosure () lists netsys com Subject: RE: [Full-disclosure] Professional Groups I know this has gone way off list but to add my couple pennies and agree with LanGuy. I happen to be stuck in a union environment - all the NW Engineers are union all the way down to helpdesk. I am and have been on contract for almost 3 years with this union shop (Local Govt.) and cannot get a job because they are union all they way to the lowest level but they need me so they've extended my contract past an original 2 months time and again. They can't hire me because of grievances, they can't fire anyone who shouldn't be working in their position because of grievances. Unions are fine for some jobs, but things like engineers, scientists, and the like should not be Union IMVHO. I believe it only servers to keep the talent pool in Union shops to an all time low. It ends up something akin to pre-perestroika Soviet work ethics. Why work harder (learn more / new things) if there is no benefit to doing so, and no danger of loosing your employment from doing otherwise! (sitting on their collective laurels). Union has it's place, I just don't think this is it -yet. -joe- -----Original Message----- From: Lan Guy [mailto:rlanguy () hotmail com] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:55 AM To: Daniel Sichel; full-disclosure () lists netsys com Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Professional Groups Have you considered the disbenefit of such a move. Your employer could end up having to pay you less. Force you into a group life savings plan (saving the employer money). Force your employer to decide your HMO. What I think you really mean is that we need an indepentent testing mechanism, that is not vendor baised, that can judge by a persons knowledge, education and experience. But we already have that: http://www.sans.org/ http://www.comptia.org/default.asp Just look around Lan Guy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Sichel" <daniels () Ponderosatel com> To: <full-disclosure () lists netsys com> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:31 PM Subject: [Full-disclosure] Professional GroupsIt's time we as a professional group start talking and walking like adults (at least more than in the past), I think. Just playing with computers is fine, but not enough.Agreed. And believe me, I have spent many an hour trying to figure outhow to approach the problem. Unfortunately, every solution I can come up with involves educating the masses . . . many of whom don't want to be confused with facts . . . ;>This is off topic but I couldn't help myself. What we need is a union. Why? Well right now, management generally buys the software that has the cutest infobabes, the best promise, or safe branding (Microsoft). If we had a union that negotiated a contract that paid us extra for fixing software failures or broken installs, so that the bottom line got hurt by the crap these people sell, it would take about 5 minutes for the priorities to change in purchasing decisions and for SLAs and tech support to be ratcheted up where they belong. Speaking as a US citizen, if we were Teamsters and honored their picket lines think of the leverage we would have. Scab truck drivers are available, but imagine the chaos of scab sys admins or firewall administrators? And of course when the Teamsters honor our picket lines, that wouldn't hurt a bit. Be nice to keep our jobs from going to third world countries where tech professionals are even more exploited than here. But of course, all my technical professional colleagues will pooh-pooh the idea of a union. They always do. Think about this, a union for us could be like the bar associatio for lawyers or the AMA for doctors. We could impose stringent professional abilities, certifications, and requirements to ensure we are a professional, capable body of people. We could institute apprenticeships so we have a supply of people who are more than paper MCSEs or CCNAs. I am very fortunate that I work in an enlightened company that pays more than lip service to standards and security. Management totally backs us up on secure and safe computing. No IM, no HTML mail, no user installed software. A budget for security and training. It is wonderfule. It is also the first employer in my 15 years of IT experience that follows through on these things. But I remember the pain and anguish from before. If we are going to change our industry so that we can succeed at our jobs, we need a union. Period. Dan Sichel, Network Engineer Ponderosa Telephone Company (559) 868-6367 _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. 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Current thread:
- Re: Professional Groups, (continued)
- Re: Professional Groups Ka (Jan 12)
- Re: Professional Groups Lan Guy (Jan 13)
- Re: Professional Groups Matt Burnett (Jan 12)
- RE: Professional Groups Schmehl, Paul L (Jan 12)
- RE: Professional Groups Kenton Smith (Jan 12)
- Re: Professional Groups bart2k (Jan 13)
- Re: Professional Groups Ron DuFresne (Jan 13)
- RE: Professional Groups Richard Gadsden (Jan 13)
- RE: Professional Groups Funk Jr, Joseph C. (Jan 13)
- Re: Professional Groups Ka (Jan 13)
- RE: Professional Groups James . Cupps (Jan 13)
- Re: Professional Groups Ka (Jan 13)