IDS mailing list archives
Re: Making my own IDS... how to detect packet loss ?
From: Martin Roesch <roesch () sourcefire com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:35:23 -0400
You should be calculating the next expected ack number based on the packets that you observe coming from a transmitter. If the returning ack numbers are higher than the calculated next expected ack you've missed something (barring spoofing, of course). Once you've missed something in a state-machine-based traffic analyzer you have a couple choices: 1) If you're tracking flows you can mark the flow as desynchronized and ignore it until it times out or goes through a shutdown sequence. 2) You can try to resynchronize on the protocol based on known sequences that are intrinsic and recognizable to that protocol. 3) You can just log everything (the packets) and post-process the data if you think that it could be important. If you get packets out of order the acks will still come in order (assuming no drops), your job will be to queue them until the point where you're confident you can do a proper reassembly and processing pass. The acks tell the story and if you're in purely passive-mode they're your sole indicator of what each end-point has actually seen. If the packets are coming out of order and there are large windows involved (and even when there are not) you're going to have to have fail-safe strategies for saving yourself from memory exhaustion and computational complexity attacks against your engine. TCP stream analyzers in pure-passive technologies are complex animals, don't be surprised at the complexity required to do it properly. Marty On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Francis, Shannon<Shannon.Francis () jetblue com> wrote:
I actually think that's one of the shortcomings of TCP. I could be wrong but I don't think there is a way to tell if a packet has been dropped if they are sent out of order, because the whole reason it's a TCP connection is that it's error-checking, meaning it will wait until either it has received all packets and reassembled them or the connection times out. Please correct me if I'm wrong though :-D. Regards, Shannon Francis -----Original Message----- From: listbounce () securityfocus com [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] On Behalf Of Jonathon Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:44 PM To: focus-ids () securityfocus com Subject: Re: Making my own IDS... how to detect packet loss ? Thanks all for your replies. I think the general consensus was to look at the ACKs. However the problem with that solution is that I could get packets in any order. So, for example, I could receive an ACK for packet N, which doesn't necessarily mean that I've dropped packet N. It could possibly mean that packet N has not come to me. If I did get the packets though in order, that would definitely make things much easier :) Thanks J On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Aaron Turner<synfinatic () gmail com> wrote:On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Jonathon<thejunkjon () gmail com> wrote:I am writing my own IDS. I have a packet sniffer + TCP reassembler that I've written. For each stream I detect, I have to keep some state + a buffer of the packets for the stream. However, a problem that I've run into is that sometimes packets could get lost (meaning I do not capture them, but they were actually sent/received between two hosts on the network). If I do drop the packets, my current implementation gets all messed up since I never end up freeing the resources I've allocated for that stream. So, lost packets seem to be the bain of my current implementation. My question is (assuming all TCP streams), how can I determine whether a packet is lost by just looking at packets that I currently have in my buffer? The packets could come in any order so just because I receive a packet with seq #N, doesn't mean that a packet with seq #N-1 was sent. I hope this is the appropriate mailing list for my question.If you track the values of the Ack's in packets then you'll know when you've dropped one or more TCP segments which were received by the other end. Example: Assume server sends 3 packets with Sequence numbers of 10, 50 and 100. But you only see 10 & 100. If the client only Ack's 10, then you know it didn't see 50 either. But if it Ack's 100 then you know it saw data you missed. -- Aaron Turner http://synfin.net/ http://tcpreplay.synfin.net/ - Pcap editing and replay tools for Unix & Windows Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin ----------------------------------------------------------------- Securing Your Online Data Transfer with SSL. A guide to understanding SSL certificates, how they operate and their application. By making use of an SSL certificate on your web server, you can securely collect sensitive information online, and increase business by giving your customers confidence that their transactions are safe. http://www.dinclinx.com/Redirect.aspx?36;5001;25;1371;0;1;946;9a80e04e1a17f194----------------------------------------------------------------- Securing Your Online Data Transfer with SSL. A guide to understanding SSL certificates, how they operate and their application. By making use of an SSL certificate on your web server, you can securely collect sensitive information online, and increase business by giving your customers confidence that their transactions are safe. http://www.dinclinx.com/Redirect.aspx?36;5001;25;1371;0;1;946;9a80e04e1a17f194 ----------------------------------------------------------------- Securing Your Online Data Transfer with SSL. A guide to understanding SSL certificates, how they operate and their application. By making use of an SSL certificate on your web server, you can securely collect sensitive information online, and increase business by giving your customers confidence that their transactions are safe. http://www.dinclinx.com/Redirect.aspx?36;5001;25;1371;0;1;946;9a80e04e1a17f194
-- Martin Roesch - Founder/CTO, Sourcefire Inc. - +1-410-290-1616 Sourcefire - Security for the Real World - http://www.sourcefire.com Snort: Open Source IDP - http://www.snort.org ----------------------------------------------------------------- Securing Your Online Data Transfer with SSL. A guide to understanding SSL certificates, how they operate and their application. By making use of an SSL certificate on your web server, you can securely collect sensitive information online, and increase business by giving your customers confidence that their transactions are safe. http://www.dinclinx.com/Redirect.aspx?36;5001;25;1371;0;1;946;9a80e04e1a17f194
Current thread:
- Making my own IDS... how to detect packet loss ? Jonathon (Jul 16)
- Re: Making my own IDS... how to detect packet loss ? Aaron Turner (Jul 16)
- Re: Making my own IDS... how to detect packet loss ? Jonathon (Jul 16)
- RE: Making my own IDS... how to detect packet loss ? Francis, Shannon (Jul 16)
- Re: Making my own IDS... how to detect packet loss ? Martin Roesch (Jul 16)
- Re: Making my own IDS... how to detect packet loss ? Jonathon (Jul 16)
- Re: Making my own IDS... how to detect packet loss ? Aaron Turner (Jul 16)
- Re: Making my own IDS... how to detect packet loss ? Paul Palmer (Jul 16)