Re: [ekmi] Re: fringe: Open source laptop tracking

[Arshad Noor <arshad.noor () strongauth com>]

I don't disagree with the points you make, Matthew.  The problem is
that it will not stop the theft of laptops, but will force the theft
of laptops to become part of a professional operation.

During the prohibition, people bought liquor when it was illegal.  I
understand the market for illegal narcotics is at its highest levels
despite it being against the law.  As long as there are cheap laptops
available for sale somewhere, some people will buy them.  Maybe not 
on eBay, but definitely where credit-card numbers and social-security
numbers are being sold (who knows, if a laptop is engraved with "Bank
of Something or the Other", it might even fetch a higher price!).

Technologies such as these (the "phone-home" feature) give the false 
impression that they will deter thieves.  It will not.  The automobile
industry is a telling example.  Despite car locks, ignition locks, car
alarms, lo-jacks and RFID - cars get stolen.  People get careless, or
they relax too much relying on such technologies to protect them.  
While I will not deny their basic usefulness, it is far better for 
people to be vigilant and protect what is more important (the data) 
than rely on technology like this to somehow change the behavior of 
attackers.  

Arshad Noor
StrongAuth, Inc.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Rosenquist" <matthew.rosenquist () intel com>
To: "brian honan" <brian.honan () bhconsulting ie>, "Brian Krebs" <Brian.Krebs () washingtonpost com>, "Allen" 
<netsecurity () sound-by-design com>, "Arshad Noor" <arshad.noor () strongauth com>
Cc: "security curmudgeon" <jericho () attrition org>, ST-ISC () MAIL ABANET ORG, "ekmi" <ekmi () lists oasis-open org>, 
dataloss () attrition org
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:57:56 AM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles
Subject: RE: [Dataloss] [ekmi] Re:  fringe: Open source laptop tracking

We may be missing the bigger point, as security is both technical as well as behavioral. 

Yes, it is obvious this technology in its current state can easily be undermined by a determined attacker. But will it 
be a deterrence? Will it affect the casual laptop theft? Will it give pause to people buying questionable laptops at 
the flea markets or from shady vendors? Will it make laptops less attractive targets to thieves looking for any means 
of a quick buck? Can it effect the resale economy of such ‘hot’ merchandise? Will it give employees a second thought 
about swiping extra equipment for personal use? Maybe. This technology increases the risk of being caught. If so, it 
will have an overall positive benefit. 

We all know an effective security program does not need to provide real security. We have locks on our home doors which 
are a joke to anyone who has the intention of getting into your house. But it does help. It thwarts opportunistic 
attacks where the thief is looking for the path of least resistance to reach their goals. If your house is locked and 
the next house is not, then there is a good chance your neighbor will be the one victimized. 

I see this technology, which could be evolved into something great eventually, as similar to engraving laptops with 
“Property of XXX company” or something obviously not easily resold or used in the open. It is a deterrent and lowers 
the target-attractiveness factor. I don’t have any data handy, but last I read, most laptops are not stolen for their 
data. Rather it is a hardware itself which is valued. 

Matthew Rosenquist 
Security Strategist 
Intel Corporation 
Matthew.Rosenquist () Intel com 
(916) 356-4882 


From: dataloss-bounces () attrition org [mailto: dataloss-bounces () attrition org ] On Behalf Of Brian Honan 
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 5:56 AM 
To: 'Brian Krebs'; 'Allen'; 'Arshad Noor' 
Cc: 'security curmudgeon'; ST-ISC () MAIL ABANET ORG ; 'ekmi'; dataloss () attrition org 
Subject: Re: [Dataloss] [ekmi] Re: fringe: Open source laptop tracking 

Brian 

As has been pointed out this type of technology does nothing to protect your data and provides some recourse to recover 
the physical device if and when it connects to the Internet. Indeed in some countries you may have to carefully 
consider the legal and privacy implications of using such technology. The Data Privacy laws in some European countries 
may restrict the use of such technology - this is something that I have yet to research into further though. In a 
similar vein some police forces may not be able to act on the information you provide to them. 

The most useful application I have seen for this type of technology is recovering computers stolen by employees. I know 
of one company that installed similar technology onto laptops given out to employees and as a result saw the number of 
"lost laptops" reduce. They discovered that staff were reporting their laptop had been stolen or lost but in actual 
fact were keeping the laptop for their own use. Of course this measure may only be effective until employees realise 
how the company is tracking their laptops and simply follow some of the steps outlined in an earlier email to remove 
the software from it. 

Regards 

Brian 
BH Consulting 

From: dataloss-bounces () attrition org [mailto: dataloss-bounces () attrition org ] On Behalf Of Brian Krebs 
Sent: 17 July 2008 04:18 
To: Allen; Arshad Noor 
Cc: security curmudgeon; dataloss () attrition org ; ekmi; ST-ISC () MAIL ABANET ORG 
Subject: Re: [Dataloss] [ekmi] Re: fringe: Open source laptop tracking 

My big question is, assuming for a minute you can actually zero in on the person who stole your machine (what about 
crowded living areas, like apartment buildings), what is the likelihood you'll be able to get the police to knock on 
someone's door with that evidence? 

Doesn't seem all that bloodly likely to me. Seems like it increases the chance that people running this software will 
confront the thief on their own and possibly put themselves in a very compromising situation. 

Brian Krebs 
www.washingtonpost.com/securityfix 
703-469-3162 (w) 
703-989-0727 (c) 

From: dataloss-bounces () attrition org on behalf of Allen 
Sent: Wed 7/16/2008 11:01 PM 
To: Arshad Noor 
Cc: security curmudgeon; ST-ISC () MAIL ABANET ORG ; ekmi; dataloss () attrition org 
Subject: Re: [Dataloss] [ekmi] Re: fringe: Open source laptop tracking 

Arshad, 

I don't think you[r] analysis, which I agree with, goes far enough. 

1) Steal laptop. 
2) Remove battery. 
3) Remove HD. 
4) Use HD cloning software such as Apricorn - hardware and software 
only $40 - and clone to any HD that is laying about 
5) Mount clone as USB attached to a desktop 
6) Attach old HD as USB attached and wipe old HD with DBAN or 
similar tool 
7) Use Aloha Bob or equivalent to selectively migrate OS and basic 
productivity software such as Office from clone. 
8) Remount HD in laptop 
9) Sell the sucker. 

Best, 

Allen 

Arshad Noor wrote: 
> Am I the only one who believes that an attacker (who is after 
> the data) with half-a-brain is going to make sure that the first 
> time they boot up a stolen laptop, they're NOT going to put it on 
> the internet, and they're going to disable any radio for wireless 
> communications. (Laptop companies have to provide an external 
> radio switch I imagine so that there is confirmation of the radio 
> being OFF inside an airplane - I'm not sure how the iPhone gets 
> away with a software switch since we all know software can be 
> buggy and the radio may not go off despite a visible indication 
> that it is off - but that's another discussion. 
>
> Alternatively, the attacker could boot off of a Linux CD and then 
> copy the entire hard-disk contents (or what was most interesting) 
> and then blow away everything on the hard-disk to reclaim the HW. 
>
> In both cases, they have the HW and the data without anything 
> "calling home" to give away GPS positions or IP addresses of the 
> machine. So, why do people think that this is an effective 
> counter-measure against data-theft? How long do they anticipate 
> this to work? And with which type of attacker? I've read examples 
> of attacks that go beyond anything most IT developers - or even 
> security developers - are capable of in the marketplace today , so 
> who is this expected to deter? The guy who broke into your car 
> to get the hub-caps and radio, but got the laptop instead? 
>
> Very puzzled..... 
>
> Arshad Noor 
> StrongAuth, Inc. 
>
> security curmudgeon wrote: 
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- 
> > From: "Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah" < rMslade () shaw ca > 
> >
> > I know some people who are going to be really upset by this, but 
> > personally, I'm delighted: 
> >
> > Researchers at the University of Washington and the University of 
> > California, San Diego, launched a new laptop tracking service, called 
> > Adeona, that is free and private. Once downloaded onto a laptop, the 
> > software starts anonymously sending encrypted notes about the 
> > computer’s whereabouts to servers on the Internet. If the laptop ever 
> > goes missing, the user downloads another program, enters a username 
> > and password, and then picks up this information from the servers, a 
> > free storage service called OpenDHT. (The Mac version of Adeona even 
> > uses a freeware program called isightcapture to take a snapshot of 
> > whomever is using the computer.) Adeona provides the IP address that 
> > it last used as well as data on nearby routers. Armed with that 
> > information, law enforcement could track down the criminal. Because 
> > Adeona ships with an open-source license, anyone can take the code and 
> > improve it or even sell it. The researchers say they’re hoping that 
> > software developers will build all kinds of new features such as 
> > Global Positioning System-aware tracking systems for new platforms 
> > such as the iPhone. Later this month, the Adeona team will give a 
> > technical presentation at the Usenix Security Symposium in San Jose. 
> >
> > http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=security&articleId=9110128&taxonomyId=17&intsrc=kc_top
> >  
> >
> >
> > http://adeona.cs.washington.edu/ 

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