Re: Recommended training course?

[Jon Kibler <Jon.Kibler () aset com>]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jimmy Liang wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I?m looking at expanding my security knowledge and am looking for recommendations on training courses. I?ve had a few 
> years of Windows and Solaris admin experience managing 30 or so 24/7 systems, and minimal web application 
> development. I know the basic concept of SQL injection and CRLF injection, but wouldn?t know how to actually apply it 
> in real life.
>
> I?ve been looking at the Foundstone courses, specifically, the ?Ultimate Hacking: Expert? course. This is mainly 
> because the regular ?Ultimate Hacking? and ?Ultimate Web Hacking? courses are not offered in my area any time soon. 
> I?m a little concerned that the course description says that advanced Unix and Windows knowledge is required? What 
> does advanced mean?
>
> Anyone else have other recommendations on classes? I learn better with hands on labs and live instructors. I'm mainly 
> looking for web application vulnerability but general system/wireless/network security would also be beneficial.
>
> Any recommendations is greatly appreciated.

Hi,

Any type of 'pen testing' course requires a DETAILED understanding of:
   O/Ses (Windows, and *nix) administration, command line and scripting
   IP Protocol (TCP, UDP, ICMP, ARP, IP flags, IP fragmentation, etc.)
   Application Protocols (HTTP, SOL, SMTP, etc.)
   Some programming (understand stack, heap, etc.)
   Basic tools (nmap, netcat, nessus, dsniff, wireshark, etc.)

When I say DETAILED, I **REALLY** mean detailed. The person that knows
the most makes the best pen tester, and most courses are written
assuming that you know that basics already.

I do not know the Foundstone courses specifically, but Foundstone
created the Hacking Exposed series of books. Before even considering a
course in Web Hacking, I would get one of their basic books and one of
their web hacking books. I would also download a couple of their
'HackMe' sites (bank, bookstore, etc.) and work with them. Until you are
completely comfortable with both the books and the HackMe sites, I would
not even consider an 'Expert' course. It will totally leave you in the
dust. (Just from the nature of your question, I would have to judge that
you probably do not have the required background for the courses you
mentioned.)

I have taught various penetration testing courses for about a decade
now, and I can tell you from personal experience that only about half
the students who take those courses have the required background. The
ones without adequate background simply become overwhelmed the first day
and feel like they are drinking from a dozen fire hoses at once. They
pick up a few things here and there, but since they lack the basics,
they are unable to acquire the skills they had hoped for.

SANS has some basic courses, but they are not cheap. The CEH course is
probably the most detailed, but a 5 day CEH course only covers the
basics and you are left to learn the meat on your own. Foundstone has a
reputation for good courses, but from what I understand, they are mostly
not for beginners. If you want a true intro course, look into
SensePost's Hacking by the Numbers Cadet Edition course at BlackHat -- I
have heard nothing but good comments about it. (I did their Combat
Training course last year -- best course I ever took.)

You may learn best with hands-on labs and live instructors, but all
courses assume a certain amount of prior knowledge and experience. Even
at a basic level, there is too much background required to include the
background basics in the course. Look at it from this perspective: Most
hacking courses are like calculus, and you would not take a calculus
course without algebra and trig, because that background would be
assumed and not covered in the course.

Bottom line: If you read a couple of the Hacking Exposed books and you
think 'Okay, this is boring, I already know this stuff', then you are
probably ready for a course. Until then, study the books and work some
with some of the HackMe tools. You may also want to take a look at the
OWASP WebGoat, too. Hone your skills before you spend your money on
formal training.

I hope this helps.

Jon Kibler
- --
Jon R. Kibler
Chief Technical Officer
Advanced Systems Engineering Technology, Inc.
Charleston, SC  USA
o: 843-849-8214
c: 843-224-2494
s: 843-564-4224

My PGP Fingerprint is:
BAA2 1F2C 5543 5D25 4636 A392 515C 5045 CF39 4253


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkh7doUACgkQUVxQRc85QlPf3ACeMvk0qqZO4vE91aDT81bDgP+1
nUoAoImpR3ffEIjkdy4Pz70RZTbQ0mgd
=rbt5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




==================================================
Filtered by: TRUSTEM.COM's Email Filtering Service
http://www.trustem.com/
No Spam. No Viruses. Just Good Clean Email.