RE: Disclosure of vulns and its legal aspects...

["Craig Wright" <Craig.Wright () bdo com au>]

Please take a littler time to think about your statement.

First, if we allow people to scan and test sites without permission,
then there is an automatic "get out of goal free card" for all
attackers. Just say "sorry officer, I was just testing the security at
the bank for their own good".

Vigilantees are not nice friendly and helpful people. They are people
who break the law - it is all rather simple. I do not want to have
people going about the streets checking to ensure that I have locked my
silver cabinet after first breaking down the door (as it is not solid 6"
oak with 10 layers of dead-lock). Likewise, I do not want to have people
thinking that they are offering some type of service "testing" systems
without permission.

At best they make a determination of the "real" attackers more
difficult. At worst, where do you draw the line. They have attacked but
did not get into the site in a manner to do any real damage - so they
must just be doing good?

"Good Samaritan" - Bah! If the person is truly a "good Samaritan" as you
feel than why they are not doing this officially. There are numerous
charities, non-profits, start-ups, etc that need services and can not
afford them. A "good Samaritan" is one who offers a valid service to
something such as this without doing it for the publicity - and they
offer it Pro Bono.

They ask first. They get permission.

People who assume that they have a right to do what they want, do this
by assuming the rights of others.

In contradiction to the belief of many on the list, people have a right
to be stupid and live in ignorance. I may not like this, but it is a
fundamental tenant of freedom. To have freedom means the right to be
daft. The right to be daft means the right to have an insecure site.
They will learn eventually.

Regards,
Craig



Craig Wright
Manager of Information Systems

Direct : +61 2 9286 5497
Craig.Wright () bdo com au
+61 417 683 914

BDO Kendalls (NSW)
Level 19, 2 Market Street Sydney NSW 2000
GPO BOX 2551 Sydney NSW 2001
Fax +61 2 9993 9497
www.bdo.com.au

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-----Original Message-----

From: listbounce () securityfocus com [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com]
On Behalf Of Lee Lawson
Sent: Thursday, 31 May 2007 4:25 AM
To: Steve Friedl; pen-test () securityfocus com
Cc: James Wilburn; security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: Re: Disclosure of vulns and its legal aspects...

True, that might be a better idea, send everything you have found and
make no further contact.

Isn't it a great shame that we find it dangerous and difficult to
inform organisations that their security has holes in it?  Why do they
immediately jump on the offensive and accuse the good Samaritan of
hacking?  Just accept the information and make yourself more secure!
Simple.

I suppose that sometimes, they just don't deserve the help.





On 5/30/07, Steve Friedl <steve () unixwiz net> wrote:
> On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 09:14:39AM +0100, Lee Lawson wrote:
> > I would personally create an anoymous email account and send them
some
> > information stating that you are a penetration tester that
'happened'
> > upon a possible security flaw in their website, but because of the
> > state of fear that some unenlightened organisations have about this
> > type of situation, you wish to remain anonymous at this point.  Then
> > explain that if they are open to increasing the security of their
> > website, you will gladly analyse the security flaw further and give
> > them full disclosure, on the basis that you will be given written
> > permission prior to continuing further.
>
> I hardly think that "written permission" granted after what would be
> received as an extortion attempt would be valid.
>
> If you are really intent on helping the party that's insecure, then
the
> only quasi-safe way to do it is to send an anonymous report that has
all
> the details, shows them how to reproduce the issue themselves, and
urge
> them to contact their local security experts to have this looked at.
>
> The ONLY CHANCE of having your message being taken seriously is if
there
> is no question about your motives, and the only way to attempt that is
to
> remove yourself from the loop once you've sent off the report.  That
means
> no ongoing contact, no payment, no work. You leave it to them to fix.
>
> Even this is no guarantee - the great majority of unsolicited security
> reports is ignored even if presented clearly and with an unambiguous
> message disclaiming any personal gain.
>
> It's really just not worth the trouble.
>
> Steve
>
> ---
> Stephen J Friedl | Security Consultant |  UNIX Wizard  |   +1 714
544-6561
> www.unixwiz.net  | Tustin, Calif. USA  | Microsoft MVP |
steve () unixwiz net
>


-- 
Lee J Lawson
leejlawson () gmail com

"Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire,
and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."

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