Re: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator

[Bob Radvanovsky <rsradvan () unixworks net>]

You need to clarify that a *little* bit more, bub...that would be, in this *country*.  I was recently asked for reprint 
permission for one of my whitepapers for a publication for an educational facility overseas, so "cyber forensics" 
around the globe is picking up.  "CIFI" was one of the first, but (certainly) won't be the last.  ;))

Bob Radvanovsky, CISM, CIFI, REM, CIPS
"knowledge squared is information shared"
rsradvan (at) unixworks.net | infracritical.com | ehealthgrid.com
(630) 673-7740 | (412) 774-0373 (fax) 



----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Wright [mailto:cwright () bdosyd com au]
To: "Robinson, Sonja" [mailto:SRobinson () HIPUSA com], Mark Teicher [mailto:mht3 () earthlink net], security-basics () 
securityfocus com
Subject: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator


> Hi,
>
> First to what I have been saying all along "There IS a distinction
> between the two" (incident response, forensics). Agreed as stated. The
> argument seems to be gravitating towards one of specialist vs.
> generalist

> Certified Information Forensics Investigator CIFI was grandfathered by a
> large number of people (though now closed).
>
> Encase etc are JUST technical certs for the use of a product - they are
> not proof of forensic skills.

> CCE and MCCE have no grandfather provision but are otherwise similar to
> the CIFI though they are focused on Forensics and not incident response.
>
> SANs for an independent technical point of  view have the best training
> and Certificates (esp. at Gold level). Again, Incident response is
> separate to Forensics in this and they have separate certs (GCFA, GCIH).
>
>
> Re ISSFA, "This is one organization that is making a concerted effort to
> establish criteria and universally acceptable certification". This is
> one of several organisations. It is not the oldest, not the largest. I
> have no issues with the ISSFA, but it is not the only one.
>
> PS... What is a "CISM Forensic Specialist"? CISM I know...I have one,
> but no one at ISACA has offered this one to me.
>
> Regards
> Craig

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robinson, Sonja [mailto:SRobinson () HIPUSA com]

> Sent: 8 February 2006 2:17
> To: Mark Teicher; security-basics () securityfocus com
> Subject: RE: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator
>
> No, not really.  Without getting technical and into strict defintions
> because I really just don't have the time at the moment....  In
> corporate/private practice, just as in LE, there are "forensics" teams
> there are also "investigators".  There IS a distinction between the two
> though.  Sometimes one person does both and sometimes they don't.  Good
> digitial investigators generally should know both because you should be
> doing both at the same time - performing your investigation in a
> forensically sound manner.  (Sometimes you as a forensic person are
> assisting an official investigator but let's not split hairs. Reality is
> that much of the time you ARE the forensics tehcnician AND the
> investigator because companies generally don't employ both).  Here is an
> example of good investigation/bad forensics.  So if I was a PI (which I
> was) and I backtraced a threatening e-mail for my client.  I printed out
> the headers and the e-mail.  Then I deleted the e-mail and did not
> retain a forensically acceptable copy (don't read into the use of the
> word "copy"-you know what I mean).  I may have been very good
> investigating the threat and back tracing it to the originating ISP and
> locating the perp but I've deleted the evidence.  I can not recreate it
> and I can not prove it was not fabricated.  Everything I did for the
> victim/client is moot.   Nothing happens to the perp since I have no
> evidence, the threatening e-mail turns into a murder/suicide.
> Therefore, while I was a good investigator I was NOT a good forensics
> technician.  Therefore, my case is dismissed because there is no
> evidence other than a print out which can be easily faked.  THAT is the
> distinction. But being a great forensics person does not mean you are a
> great investigator either.  This is where network security and IT
> knowledge comes in.  It makes you better at both.
>
> There really is no one place or body that issues a universally accepted
> certificate in "forensics".  There are proprietary certificates such as
> Encase, Access Data or NTI.  There are group/organization certificates
> for forensics such as IISFA, etc.  But as of yet, there is no "one"
> agreed upon certification like the CISSP for instance.  That is in the
> works so to speak.  Professional groups are taking steps to try to
> define a set of standards that will be required for certifications and
> in order to accurately advertise yourself as "forensics".  I would like
> to note that the main technical responses have come from 3 people who
> hold the CIFI through the IISFA  - Dave Kleinbaum, Bob Radvanvsky and
> myself.  This is one organization that is making a concerted effort to
> establish criteria and universally acceptable certification. 

> In those "books" that you mention and in that persons common body of
> knowledge most likely is a good foundation of forensics.  Not
> necessarily but most likely.  Investigations and forensics are not the
> same nor are the mutually exclusive.
>
>
> Sonja L. Robinson, CISSP, CIFI, CISA, CISM Forensic Specialist, Digital
> Investigations HIP Information Security Group
> Tel: 212-806-4125
> srobinson () hipusa com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Teicher [mailto:mht3 () earthlink net]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 7:28 AM
> To: Craig Wright; Robinson, Sonja; security-basics () securityfocus com
> Subject: RE: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator
>
> So if one has written six books on Internet and Investigations, as well
> as a number of articles for various PI magazines, with a CISSP
> certification, a NSA IAM certificate, a Private Investigator license and
> a certification in email tracing, that doesn't make one certified a
> Cyber Crime Investigator?? I still don't understand the difference then
> ?
>
> /
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> > From: Craig Wright <cwright () bdosyd com au>
> > Sent: Feb 6, 2006 4:51 PM
> > To: "Robinson, Sonja" <SRobinson () HIPUSA com>,

> > security-basics () securityfocus com
> > Subject: RE: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> > There is a confusion between forensic analysis and incident response.
> > Although these are related and in fact many people do both, they are

> > not the same. Incident response teams or personal are needed in many

> > organisations. Having a good investigative team makes life easier for a
>
> > forensic analyst.
> >
> > They are however different roles. Oft the roles will overlap, but the

> > primary focus of forensics is obtaining and preserving evidence. This

> > may go against a corporations aims to have production systems running

> > as soon as possible.
> >
> > I am not talking of LE at all. Rather I am stating insolvency support,

> > litigation support, etc.
> >
> > Network security does not mean knowing where to look for logs. This is

> > a technical skill. Again a case where people get the more esoteric

> > nature of the role confused with the technical skills.
> >
> > Very few people can investigate a hard drive in a manner that is

> > acceptable without challenger in court. This is the role of forensics.
> > General investigation is a role in incident response.
> >
> > I am sure that this will garnish further comment - but I am a purist

> > when it comes to definitive terminology. Incident response and

> > Forensics are separate (though related disciplines). Most of the

> > comments are asking about the former though stating them as the latter.
> >
> > Regards
> > Craig
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robinson, Sonja [mailto:SRobinson () HIPUSA com]
> >
> > Sent: 7 February 2006 1:51
> > To: Craig Wright; security-basics () securityfocus com
> > Subject: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator
> >
> > I'm Sorry but I have to disagree with some of your statements while I

> > agree with some others.
> >
> > 1)  Many corporations in the US and around the world are hiring

> > EXPERIENCED forensic personnel.  I have worked as a consultant and for

> > private companies doing forensics for over 8 years now.  My start was

> > private.  I have never been "employed" by LE however, I have been hired
>
> > by govts/military for jobs.  You can start entry level Info Security

> > and get trained by one of their staff if they feel you are up to the

> > challenge.  I am training a few co-workers myself and am helping them

> > on the career path.
> >
> >     Why corporate?  Espionage, sexual harrasment, porn,
> assault/murder,

> > hacking/incident response, identity theft, HIPAA/SOX, resource abuse,

> > etc. etc.  Believe me, there's plenty of work on the corporate side -

> > you don't have to go LE if you don't want to.  That's just the tip of

> > the iceberg.  You must assume that your cases will go to court,

> > especially if employees are terminated as a result of your

> > investigation.  Sometimes you work hand in hand with LE.  You can get

> > more than they can until you become their agent for internal

> > investigations.  But that's where you need ot know the law aspect.
> > Sometimes you need their assistance with items such as subpoenas, etc.
> > Also with the Calif law that is being adopted throughout the US, you

> > will be working with LE for disclousres.
> > 2)  Network security is essential if you want to perform and

> > investigation.  How will you know where to look, what logs to obtain,

> > etc.  You must also know the law in the country, states and other

> > jurisdictions that the case involves (i.e subpoena in another

> > state/country).  Nothing personal but with the right tools, most anyone
>
> > can investigate a hard drive although they will most likely screw up

> > the acquisition, chain of custody and legal aspects thereby nullifying

> > their review.  Point being, it takes a lot of training and experience

> > and if you can't find your way around a network you;ve got no business

> > doing an investigation because you will only be looking at a small part
>
> > of the picture in many cases.
> >
> > 3)  There is no "one" certification.  There are ones that are more

> > common, advisable etc. but there is no one stop shopping.
> >
> > 4)  I agree with everything up to the "after incident response".  This

> > is because, IT people will most liekly trample your evidence.  Ideally

> > you should be preserving evidence while they correct a problem so it

> > should be in tandem.  Of course, many time it does occur after IT has

> > responded and corrected an issue.  Your company should make a decision

> > before hand wether their primary goal is recovery, forensics or both.
> > The answer will vary by system, issue, etc.
> > 5)  There are classes you can take, some proprietary/some not.  There

> > are many groups you can join to learn if you are truly interested.  The
>
> > job can be boring and monotonous (i.e. Log reading and correlation) but
>
> > it's also a lot of fun.  It's a big game of hide and seek and I think

> > it's a blast.  It's never the same and you find out a lot about people.
> > 6)  I totally agree with pretty much every other statement of Craig's.
> > It's work, it's integrity, it's honesty, a lot of good communication

> > skills, a knowledge of law, operating systems, networking, incident

> > response and recovery, network security, cryptography/steganography,

> > and the ability to think like criminals/abusers without actually being
> one.
> > You  must also remember that you can not speculate.  You present facts.
> > 7)  Forensics is a science of processes.  It deals in facts.  There ARE
>
> > a lot of people and products who purport to be "forensics" but are not

> > and are well, we'll just say, "not able to present or be presentable"
> > in court for a number of reasons.
> >
> >
> > Sonja L. Robinson, CISSP, CIFI, CISA, CISM Forensic Specialist, Digital
>
> > Investigations HIP Information Security Group
> > Tel: 212-806-4125
> > srobinson () hipusa com
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Craig Wright [mailto:cwright () bdosyd com au]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 5:22 PM
> > To: security-basics () securityfocus com
> > Subject: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator
> >
> >
> > First, Computer Forensics is a separate discipline to Computer
> Security.
> > Next, incident response in business is not generally about forensics

> > nor does it have a lot to do with it.
> >
> >
> > Other than a low level knowledge of systems (and forget the tools based
> > - Encase training only - approach). A strong knowledge of law is

> > required.
> >
> > Your job/role as a forensic services provider (of any type) is to

> > provide court support. This is it - full stop.
> >
> > Your job is;
> >     1       Investigate. Document Preserve the "chain of evidence",
> >     2       Document everything. This is for and against. You have
> > to be impartial.
> >     3       Be prepared to sit in court and have your life,
> > experience and training picked apart.
> >     4       Answer the facts simply and succinctly, no more, no
> > less. What you are asked you answer. Your opinion only comes into this

> > when and IF your have been directly asked.
> >
> > The role is slow and methodological. If you think accounting and being

> > an auditor is fun, than you may fit into the role.
> >
> > Complete some courses in English grammar and report writing. This is an
>
> > essential skill. Spelling and punctuation can make or break your career
>
> > in this field.
> >
> > Forensics has NOTHING to do with detection of an attack. It comes after
>
> > the attack. It comes after the initial incident response process.
> > Knowledge of incident response is needed to ensure the "chain of

> > evidence", but it is not generally part of your role as a forensic

> > analyst.
> >
> > SANs GCFA is a good preliminary as is CCE. Neither will make you more

> > than an intern level by itself. You will be judged (at more than an

> > intern level) on how you handle cases. How you respond in court. Many

> > prospective employers will expect to view transcripts of cases you have
>
> > been involved with to see how you handle under cross.
> >
> > You want to be top of the field. Many years. Much training. Calm

> > demeanour. Honesty. Integrity. This is the simple answer. There is a

> > great deal more as well. You need at least knowledge of the law (a

> > degree is not necessary, but does help. This is how experience as an

> > officer of the law aides). Absolutely NO knowledge of information

> > security is required (in contradiction to popular belief). It does
> help.
> > Familiarity of file-systems is crucial. Learn both Linux and Windows at
>
> > the least. Understand how to create a timeline. Know how to extract and
>
> > analyse slack space while maintaining evidential integrity. These are

> > some of the required skills (tip of the iceberg).
> >
> > There are many people who profess to have computer forensic skills.
> > There are very few who really have these skills. There are even fewer

> > who can use their skills in court.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> > Craig
> >
> >
> >     Dr Craig S Wright DTh MNSA MMIT CISA CISM CISSP ISSMP ISSAP
> > G7799 GCFA AFAIM Manager - Computer Assurance Services BDO Chartered

> > Accountants & Advisers Level 19, 2 Market Street, Sydney, NSW 2001
> > Telephone: +61 2 9286 5555
> > Fax: +61 2 9993 9705
> > Direct: +61 2 9286 5497
> > <Mailto:CWright () bdosyd com au>
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mhayden [mailto:mike_hayden () quintum com]
> >
> > Sent: 2 February 2006 7:46
> > To: security-basics () securityfocus com
> > Subject: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator
> >
> > Koolk3,
> >
> > I am also looking into this, I don't have much information but this is

> > what I've gathered:
> >
> > - There seem to genarally be 2 facets of Forensics:
> > * Computer Forensics - pouring over someone's harddrive to gather and

> > document evidence.
> > * Network Forensics - Alot of what the folks on this list do on a day

> > to day basis, intrusion protection, detection and analysis.
> >
> > You can persue one or the other but it sounds like you want a

> > combination of both.
> >
> > - It has been suggested to me that if I was interested I should persue

> > a Law Enforcement career and go at it from that angle.  I have been a

> > Software developer for almost 20 years, in the US I'm too old for Law

> > Enforcement (35 yrs is the cutoff in my state) so that option is out

> > for me.
> >
> > - Another suggestion was the FBI or CIA as a civilian professional or

> > if you meet the age/citizenship criteria an Agent.
> >
> > - There are also private companies that do Computer Forensics and are

> > hired out by Lawyers or Law Enforcement that need the help when

> > computers are acquired in crimes.
> >
> > I have taken a Computer Forensics class at the college level to get a

> > feel for that but unfortunately that isn't enough to get you in the

> > door (unless you get lucky).  I also get the feeling that without an IT
>
> > background you are out in the cold.
> >
> > Another suggestion was to join one of the local chapters of the IACIS

> > (International Association of Computer Investigative Specialists).  I

> > think you would need to be invited in my an existing member and I'm not
>
> > sure if its only open to Law Enforcement folks checkout there website

> > (http://www.iacis.info/iacisv2/pages/home.php).  There are many

> > different groups, some are open to civilians and some are not.
> >
> > Hope this helps a bit.  I look forward to comments from others to help

> > me in my quest also.
> >
> > MH
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > security-basics-return-38141-mike_hayden=quintum.com () securityfocus com
> > [mailto:security-basics-return-38141-mike_hayden=quintum.com@securityfo
> > c
> > us.com]On Behalf Of Koolk3
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 12:21 PM
> > To: security-basics () securityfocus com
> > Subject: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator
> >
> >
> > Hi List,
> >
> > I tried posting this before, didn't go through. So I am trying again.
> >
> > I am interested in becoming a Forensics/Cyber Crime Investigator

> > preferably with any law enforcement agency in Canada. I will graduate

> > this April with a Bachelor in Computer Engineering. I have some

> > experince in Forensics and IT security from coop placements and wanted

> > to take this option as a career.
> >
> > My questions are:
> >
> > 1) What kind of certification is the most demanding/respected among law
>
> > enforcement aganices in Canada/US?
> >
> > 2) If anyone on the list is with RCMP, OPP or any other law enforcement
>
> > agency here could you please give me any information on a possible

> > career path. Where do I start? Are these kind of jobs considered as a

> > civilian job?
> >
> > 3) Those in the USA: could you please tell me if I can have any

> > prospect there as a Canadian citizen. I would imagine you would need an
>
> > US citizen to work in the law enforcement agencies, but what about

> > private organizations?
> >
> > 4) Any information in building a career path in this field would be

> > helpful.
> >
> > Thanks everyone.
> >
> > --
> > KoolK3
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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