RE: software to control domain administrators

["Bundschuh, Anthony D" <ANTHONY.D.BUNDSCHUH () saic com>]

I have to agree with you.  Let's not forget that someone has to configure
these so-called controls on the admin.  If they can configure it, they are
able to undo it also.  Besides, if you did not have someone with that total
access, what would you do when you need that level of control.  I am sure
that the vendors would be able to help you out, for a small fortune.  I have
heard of Novell being able to come in and get your network back when your
admin changed the domain admin password when he or she found out that they
were getting let go, but I heard it would cost tens of thousands of dollars.


As far as central recording of the audit logs, someone has to have access to
them, which means they can edit them.  It may not be the admin, but
conspiracies do happen.

-----Original Message-----
From: LordInfidel [mailto:LordInfidel () directionweb com] 
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 11:01 AM
To: Charles Fraser
Cc: Diego Teijeiro Ruiz; security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: software to control domain administrators

I agree whole heartedly about checks and balances, but that was not the
question posed.
 
The question that was posed was, 
 
"Does anyone know any software to control, audit, or restrict access or
privileges to domain administrators."

The "If I can't trust my admin he/she shouldn't be one" is not an archaic
thought, it is a reality of computing.  This is totally different from
granting a user a higher level of permissions to do their work.
 
In your case of granting sudo aka for win32,  runas access to a user or
junior admin, that is great, should be done and is a standard in modern
networked enviorments.  But again, we are not talking about limiting that
persons access, we are talking about "YOUR" access, the domain admin, the
person who gave the junior admin those rights in the first place.
 
There is no such beast as a domain admin account without domain admin
rights, it does not exist.  It's like trying to restrict root on *nix.  root
is god over *nix, the same way a domain admin is godlike over windows (i use
godlike because the juciest account is the all powerful system account)
 
BTW, Granting a user the necessary rights to do their job with the most
restrictive set possible is by no means a new school of thought.  It is
quite old.
 
<snip>
Full domain and
enterprise administrators are less and less common in favor of dividing
responsibility so administrators can have less rights to perform their day
to day functions.
</snip>
 
Well, Someone has to got to be in that position, the enterprise just does
not manage itself.  And that is the person that we are talking about
restricting.  I have a feeling that your definition of an administrator is
much different then mine.  I am talking formal Network Administrators, not
joe blow end users promoted to a network admin position because they are the
most computer savvy.

I will restate my mantra differently,  If you can not trust someone to be in
a position of complete un-adulterated control of your network, then they
should not be in that position.
 
Audit, Audit, Audit, Audit.
 
________________________________

From: Charles Fraser [mailto:fraserc () mail montclair edu]
Sent: Mon 5/9/2005 12:02 PM
To: LordInfidel
Cc: Diego Teijeiro Ruiz; security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: Re: software to control domain administrators



"If I can't trust my admin he/she shouldn't be one" is an archaic school of
thought. In today's age of compliance and accountability that school of
thought needs to be radically changed. There needs to be checks and
balances. Which is why security has to be separate from operations. More and
more enterprises are following the new school of thought that an employee
has the computer access and permissions that it takes for he or she to
perform their functions no more no less. Full domain and enterprise
administrators are less and less common in favor of dividing responsibility
so administrators can have less rights to perform their day to day
functions. Windows offers runas and sudo capabilities which we utilize to
reduce the number of people who require administrative access.  I advocate a
central/separate syslog/event viewer server that is not in the domain and
the administrators have no access to whatsoever. Now if someone is trying to
cover their tracks they can't because the logs are duplicated in real time
to the central server. It should be stressed it is not a matter of trust but
a matter of checks and balances.


Charlie

LordInfidel () directionweb com wrote:

> One of my co-workers pointed out that my response may of have come off 
> the wrong way...
>
> First, Always **Audit Everything**......  I was not advocating 'not 
> auditing'.
>
> Trustworthy Admins already do this with the explicit knowledge that 
> they themselves are subject to being audited and that their actions on 
> the network will be logged.  The point I was attempting to make before 
> is that a malicious admin or one that feels threatened has the power to 
> reverse that auditing, which the auditing mechanism should reflect 
> anyways. But the problem is compounded if the admin has access to the 
> logs, then there is nothing stopping them from covering their tracks.
>
> I apologize if it confused anyone.   The overall theme remains the same,
> if you can't explicitly trust the people who are running your network 
> then they should not be running it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: LordInfidel () directionweb com 
> [mailto:LordInfidel () directionweb com]
>
> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 6:02 PM
> To: Diego Teijeiro Ruiz; security-basics () securityfocus com
> Subject: RE: software to control domain administrators
>
> Probably a little late, been busy, but I did not see a response yet to 
> this.
>
> (assuming we are talking about NT/AD Domain Admins)
>
> Honestly, if you are looking for something to audit domain admins, then 
> you have bigger problems.
>
> Domain admins by the very nature of the account type, have complete
> control over the domain, second to only enterprise admins.   Nothing you
> install or do will prevent them from removing or modifying it.  Even 
> restricting them via NTFS permissions or GPO's does nothing since they 
> can just take ownership and modify the permissions.
>
> Keep in mind that spying on a domain admin can have catastrophic 
> effects if they feel threatened by it since they can easily mess up an 
> entire network.
>
> Basically, If you can not trust your domain admin(s), then they should 
> probably not be a domain admin and removed from that position of trust.
>
> JMO
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Diego Teijeiro Ruiz [mailto:dteijeiro () azertia com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 5:51 AM
> To: security-basics () securityfocus com
> Subject: software to control domain administrators
>
>
> Does anyone know any software to control, audit, or restrict access or 
> privileges to domain administrators.
>
> thnx in advance
>
>
> DTR
>
>
>
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