Re: Student-Degree valuable or not?

[~Kevin Davis³ <kevin.davis () mindless com>]

30K is almost lowballing for a McDonald's assistant manager.  However, if I
were desperate for a job, I would certainly take what I could get until the
market turns around.  As someone indicated previously, there can be a
drastic difference from one region to the next.  One thing to keep in mind,
a lot of job listings are constructed with a list of requirements for their
ideal candidate.  But this does not mean they won't accept less.  Sometimes
significantly less.  Particularly if they are impressed by your other
assets.  Don't have some experience they are asking about?  Turn it into
something positive.  Don't let that intimidate you or discourage you.
Convince them that you have the initiative and intelligence to come up to
speed quickly on your deficiencies (without appearing cocky or
overestimating yourself).

Of course it doesn't help that US companies are outsourcing lots of IT based
jobs to places like India where they can hire someone for 6 bucks an hour.
The CEO then lays a bunch of people off, pats himself on the back and gives
himself a big bonus.

There are some companies who actually prefer hiring kids right out of school
as opposed to someone with a high level of experience.  It's "cheaper" for
them to pay a low initial salary than a high one.  They may or may not save
anything.  Obviously the more experienced people are productive much
quicker.

~Kevin Davis³

What possibly could go wrong?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <JGrimshaw () ASAP com>
Cc: "Security-Basics" <security-basics () securityfocus com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: Student-Degree valuable or not?


30k is in the Chicagoland area.  That is where I am located.  It is the
number my friend is looking for, perhaps he is lowballing himself?

I'll use my friend as an example; he's 22, out of school.  He went to (oh
heck I don't know, Northern IL , or Southern) and went into computer
engineering, and received his four-year degree.

There is literally nothing out there in the job market that he is capable
of doing, and this is not a shot at him or his abilities.  Look for
yourself at the lists of demands for jobs; not only do you have to
program, you need so many years of experience.  You need to program in the
latest .NET, which wasn't taught in school.  He needs to know the entire
Visual Studio suite.  Sure, he can work his way around visual basic and
other things, but he has no business experience.  He doesn't even have
shareware to show a prospective employer (which I have encouraged him to
write, just so he can place it on his resume).

Where does new graduate get the experience in these things, aside from
piracy and further personal education ?   Or additional classes at some
computer training place for a few thousand more dollars that he doesn't
have? These programming packages do not come cheap.  He is good at Linux,
as far as I am concerned, but he has not professionally administered
anything other than sharing the network connection at his parents house
and setting up a linux firewall on an old 386.

He questions the purpose of his degree, and I really cannot blame him. His
parents are pretty livid he's still living at home with a four-year
degree.  They assumed he'd be long gone by now.

He has had interviews with consulting firms, but they don't go anywhere
because he doesn't have experience.  Traditionally, you get the experience
somewhere first before you start consulting, unless you sell yourself
really well.  It has been my experience to learn things from the first
"real" job you have, but even smaller companies are simply out-sourcing
rather than hiring on a new graduate.

Here is an example of a typical programming job posting in the Chicago
area:


Technical Skills Desired:
Programming Languages: EJB/J2EE (WebSphere, WebLogic), Java, C++, .NET,
Visual Basic, COM, ASP,
HTML, XML, CORBA.
Development Tools: UML, Rational Rose, Rational ClearCase
Database Skills: SQL, Oracle, SQL Server, DB2
Operating Systems: Unix (Solaris, AIX), Windows 2000/NT
Applications: Siebel, Tibco, Vitria, Portal, DSET, Mantiss, Daleen,
Amdocs, Cygent, Clarify, Metasolv, PeopleSoft, Vertex

The best he can do on most of these is look them up on Google.  I haven't
heard of Vitria, DSET, Mantiss (but it sounds cool!), Amdocs, Cygnet, or
Vertex.  Maybe I'm behind, but I am not a programmer.

As for me, I am a CCIE.  I worked up from A+ to MCP to MCSE to CCNA, CCNP
and finally CCIE.  And you know what?  Prospective employers would tell me
"Oh, you don't have 8 years of Security Design?" and "Oh, you haven't
implemented VoIP to thousands of users in an enterprise environment?"
Better still, being a CCIE somehow translates that you must know
EVERYTHING.  "You have configured a checkpoint firewall, right?"  "How
good are you at UNIX?" "So, you don't have experience with migrating from
Banyan Vines?"

Here's a posting for a CCIE in my area:


One of Chicago's largest healthcare institutions is seeking a Senior Level
Cisco Expert. Must have strong Cisco Router experience up to the 7500 and
12,000 GSR series. Must have 8+ in design and 3rd tier troubleshooting in
a complex, multi-platform enviroment. Network monitoring backround
required and routing protocol knowledge a must (BGP, OSPF, RIP), You will
be the lead for this cutting edge team of Network Engineers and will be
doing industry research and implementation of new technology, as well as
acting as the last line of defense for high level problem resolution. Any
certifications a plus. CCIE is strongly recommended.


 The IOS is the essentially the same look and feel on a 1600 router as it
is on a 12,000 GSR series.  The CLI doesn't change, but there sure are a
lot of extra options on the 12,000 GSR.  Now, on ebay, a 1600 might go for
$700.  A 12,000 GSR goes for perhaps six digits when loaded.  With this in
mind, I have not had the opportunity to even telnet into a 12,000 GSR. The
issue here is that HR doesn't know that.  HR has never used a router.
Frequently, HR doesn't know what a router even is.  But I am already out
of the running when I say that no, actually, I haven't touched a 12,000
GSR series router.  This particular job posting has been up for at least a
month; I am thinking that out of the small pool of CCIEs that there are,
the few in the Chicago area that have touched a 12,000 GSR series is
likely already employed and working with one.  Not many companies need a
$100,000 router.

All of this is besides the point, so allow me to get back on track.

The market is in a difficult stage right now, being entry level doesn't
help, being recognized as an industry expert seems to not help as much,
and at the same time, everything I do, and everything that my programmer
friend can do... can all be done outside the confines of the company, be
it a local outsourcer (say, outsourcing the helpdesk to the call center in
Alphretta, Georiga at IBM), or a remote outsourcer (such as GECIS or Wipro
or Satyam or Tata).

I'll reiterate my original statement: Learn something and do it well, and
try to learn everything else.

Some people try to argue that a college degree is better than an industry
certification (or multiple certifications), and that is not what I am
trying to address.  I stated the economy is bad, and the jobs that have
gone overseas are not likely to return.  Wherever you go, and whatever you
do--do it well, and make sure it's not the only thing you know how to do.
















I would have a hard time believing that 30K would be too much to ask for a
position like that anywhere in the US.  Maybe the person was referring to
a
position in another country or possibly a small town in North Dakota or
something.  My first job straight out of college as an EE 20 years ago
landed me a job at around 23K and that was a fairly low number at the
time.
And this is in Florida where the COL is pretty low.


~Kevin Davis³

What possibly could go wrong?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ben Huntley" <benh () steffian com>
To: "Security-Basics" <security-basics () securityfocus com>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 12:49 PM
Subject: RE: Student-Degree valuable or not?


keep in mind that no one can ever take the degree away from you.  also,
some
of the salary numbers being tossed around this thread may apply
regionally.
for example, one of the first messages made reference to $30K being too
much
to ask for.  if you live/work in the northeast (e.g. Boston, NYC) this
number isn't enough for you to survive on, therefore, the pay scale is
much
higher (as well as the cost of living).

as a developer, i can't really speak for those in the security
administration field, however, most entry-level jobs for software
companies
that are hiring [programmers] locally (and yep, some are) start off in the
40-50 range and move up from there.

-b



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