Re: v2.8.4 incorrect logging to MySQL

[Martin Roesch <roesch () sourcefire com>]

You're missing my point.  The existing Snort 2.x code base is under
the GPLv2.  The new Snort 3 code base is under the GPLv2 with
Sourcefire clarifications and definitions.  There is no contributed
code in the Snort 3 code base at this point save a patch or two that
were submitted under the GPLv2 with SF clarifications.  There has been
no change of license to a pre-existing set of code, this license is on
the new code.

The question that you're not answering is whether you regard the
nearly exact same licensing language on a different code base to be
"open source" or not.

As I recall, Nmap has always had the terms it has now or something
very close to them.  Is it open source or isn't it?

Marty


On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 7:35 PM, Loyal A Moses <loyalmoses () mac com> wrote:
> I'll answer.
>
> I'll send an email to Fydor and find out if he was GPL before he made
> his custom license changes. Heck, lets go dig up some original nmap
> packages from packetstorm.
>
> If Nmap was always under his restricted / altered license and
> contributors knew this from the beginning, there is no problem.
>
> If he modified the license after GPL contribution by users and the
> ultimate success of Nmap, then yes he is in the wrong.
>
> Loyal.
>
> On Apr 14, 2009, at 4:31 PM, Martin Roesch wrote:
>
> > Alan,
> >
> > We're not "hiding behind" anything.  Our licensing terms are clearly
> > outlined in Snort 3.  We (and I) believe this is a valid way to
> > license software using the GPL.
> >
> > Nobody has answered my question and I'll modify it a bit: Is
> > Fyodor/Insecure.org "hiding behind" the GPL?
> >
> > Marty
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Alan Shimel <alan () stillsecure com>
> > wrote:
> > > Folks I have argued this point with Marty over and over and that
> > > was a year ago when this first came to light. Is it open source?
> > > Technically, yes it is open source. Does Sourcefire need the
> > > ability to dual license for other commercial entities that may want
> > > to embed Snort? Yes of course. So engineering aside, the plain
> > > truth is that if Sourcefire is going to protect their IP
> > > (intellectual property) and build a commercial business around it,
> > > they have no choice but to do this.
> > >
> > > They could have just said it is not open source from 3.0 on and
> > > gone that way (as other open source projects have), but they choose
> > > not to. Also from a commercial point of view, how could they
> > > license code that they don't own.  So if they took contributed code
> > > and it was not assigned to sourcefire, what right would they have
> > > to license and charge someone for this code?
> > >
> > > The bottom line is welcome to the world of commercial open source.
> > > It may shock some of you, offend others and most of you I suspect
> > > won't give a darn.  It really only effects you if you contribute
> > > code (a small percentage of you) or if you are seeking to embed
> > > Snort in your own commercial products.  But don't be naïve, this is
> > > what open source software that is owned by commercial companies is
> > > all about these days.
> > >
> > > Last year we at StillSecure released our own product, Cobia on our
> > > own "community license" because we didn't want to hide behind a GPL
> > > duality. We were plain and open about why we did this and caught
> > > flak from the open source community. So I guess no matter what you
> > > do, you just can't please all the people all the time!
> > >
> > > alan
> > >
> > > StillSecure
> > > Alan Shimel
> > > Chief Strategy Officer
> > >
> > > O 561.886.0455
> > > C 516.857.7409
> > > F 303.381.3881
> > >
> > > StillSecure, After All These Years
> > >
> > > ? Grab this Headline Animator
> > >
> > > www.stillsecure.com
> > > The information transmitted is intended only for the person
> > > to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential material.
> > > Review or other use of this information by persons other than
> > > the intended recipient is prohibited. If you've received
> > > this in error, please contact the sender and delete
> > > from any computer.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Martin Roesch [mailto:roesch () sourcefire com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 5:47 PM
> > > To: Loyal A Moses
> > > Cc: snort-users () lists sourceforge net
> > > Subject: Re: [Snort-users] v2.8.4 incorrect logging to MySQL
> > >
> > > It's actually a dual license if you want to get technical and it's
> > > common practice in the open source world where you have a business as
> > > the primary developer of the open source technology.
> > >
> > > Do you consider Nmap to be open source?  It has nearly the exact same
> > > license modifiers as we use and has for far longer than the Snort
> > > project.  Does anyone consider it to not be open source for
> > > noncommercial use?  It's in Debian's apt-get and listed as GPL2 and
> > > uses almost exactly the same licensing language that Snort 3 uses, in
> > > fact we derived our terms from Nmap's licensing language originally.
> > >
> > > Snort 3.0 is distributed under the GPLv2, the license is included
> > > with
> > > the code.  That makes it open source.  The fact that it doesn't bring
> > > forward code contributions from Snort 2 has absolutely nothing to do
> > > with the fact that they were contributed from 3rd parties.
> > >
> > > The decision to undertake development of Snort 3.0 had nothing to do
> > > with licensing issues and everything to do with engineering
> > > requirements.  Go have a look at my blog if you want to understand
> > > the
> > > scope of those engineering requirements.  *I* decided to start with a
> > > fresh code base after mulling it over for months because I felt that
> > > adapting the capabilities to the existing Snort 2.x code base
> > > wouldn't
> > > help us at all in terms of time to release or capabilities.  We would
> > > have changed so much that there would have been more effort involved
> > > retrofitting the existing code than there would be writing new code.
> > > I actually wrote some prototypes of what I wanted to accomplish in
> > > Snort 3 on top of Snort 2 and rapidly decided that there was more
> > > risk
> > > going that route instead of starting from scratch.
> > >
> > > The fact that it doesn't carry over contributed code makes it no less
> > > open source than it is today.  Snort 3 is open source.
> > >
> > > Marty
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Loyal A Moses <loyalmoses () mac com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Marty,
> > > >
> > > > Do you mean open source as in GPL or equivalent or as in we can all
> > > > read the source?
> > > >
> > > > A quote from you:
> > > >
> > > > "We're also saying that people who want to
> > > > contribute code to the project do so with the knowledge that we're
> > > > going to consider the code as assigned to Sourcefire unless other
> > > > arrangements are made."
> > > >
> > > > That doesn't sound so "open source" to me and more like a charade.
> > > >
> > > > And another quote in the same posting by you:
> > > >
> > > > "Given that we need to be able to offer Snort under an alternative
> > > > license for commercial integrators who are integrating Snort and
> > > > don't want to adhere to the GPL it's essential that we retain the
> > > > right to relicense the totality of the codebase."
> > > >
> > > > Now, there is the real reason.
> > > >
> > > > Just be direct and communicate that version 3 will not be GPL and
> > > > Sourcefire will now retain all rights. Unless you plan on having two
> > > > source branches with zero intellectual-property cross over and
> > > > licensed independently.
> > > >
> > > > I am not hostile towards the concept. The concept is business and it
> > > > is what it is.
> > > >
> > > > Loyal.
> > > >
> > > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 1:40 PM, Martin Roesch wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Snort 3.0 is open source.
> > > > >
> > > > > Marty
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Loyal A Moses <loyalmoses () mac com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Snort is open source, until version 3. But that is a whole other
> > > > > > argument.
> > > > > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 1:11 PM, Joel Esler wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No one is taking a vote, we just said, "if we had a vote in it..."
> > > > > > I'd
> > > > > > rather take the code out of the IDS/IPS and put it into an output
> > > > > > module.
> > > > > >  One that is maintained well (as Shawn said).
> > > > > > Snort is an open source program, I don't see harm in discussion on
> > > > > > Snort's
> > > > > > own mailing lists do you?
> > > > > > J
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Loyal A Moses
> > > > > > <loyalmoses () mac com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > Is Sourcefire limited on development skill or man power?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It makes no sense at all to remove one of the most common
> > > > > > > facilities
> > > > > > > in use by snort users because it is "too complex".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the end, you'll do what you are going to do regardless of the
> > > > > > > community -- we've seen it before. But don't use "complexity" and
> > > > > > > "bugs" as the excuse.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sourcefire is a publicly traded company -- Is it smart to be
> > > > > > > taking
> > > > > > > votes on product development from a mailing list? I wouldn't
> > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > so.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Loyal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 11:52 AM, Jason Brvenik wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have an ulterior motive and it is simple.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Many of the bugs and issues over time with snort have been in
> > > > > > > > output
> > > > > > > > plugins. Make one well supported, tested, unified method
> > > > > > > > designed
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > best performance and while doing so it improves the
> > > > > > > > supportability and
> > > > > > > > maintainability of the code base.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Loyal A Moses <loyalmoses () mac com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > My vote is to provide as many output options as possible, to
> > > > > > > > > help
> > > > > > > > > keep
> > > > > > > > > snort used as a tool.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The argument of code complexity being a good reason to remove
> > > > > > > > > output
> > > > > > > > > facilities is only valid if the code is written poorly and not
> > > > > > > > > modular. This wheel doesn't need re-invented and this
> > > > > > > > > conversation is
> > > > > > > > > kind of silly, unless there is ulterior motives for actually
> > > > > > > > > wanting
> > > > > > > > > to remove this support.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Loyal.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > joel esler | Sourcefire | gtalk: jesler () sourcefire com |
> > > > > > 302-223-5974
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Martin Roesch - Founder/CTO, Sourcefire Inc. - +1-410-290-1616
> > > > > Sourcefire - Security for the Real World - http://
> > > > > www.sourcefire.com
> > > > > Snort: Open Source IDP - http://www.snort.org
> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Martin Roesch - Founder/CTO, Sourcefire Inc. - +1-410-290-1616
> > > Sourcefire - Security for the Real World - http://www.sourcefire.com
> > > Snort: Open Source IDP - http://www.snort.org
> > >
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Martin Roesch - Founder/CTO, Sourcefire Inc. - +1-410-290-1616
> > Sourcefire - Security for the Real World - http://www.sourcefire.com
> > Snort: Open Source IDP - http://www.snort.org
>
>
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-- 
Martin Roesch - Founder/CTO, Sourcefire Inc. - +1-410-290-1616
Sourcefire - Security for the Real World - http://www.sourcefire.com
Snort: Open Source IDP - http://www.snort.org

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