Penetration Testing mailing list archives
Re: [PEN-TEST] Implications for "Looking around?" [FBI confiscation of allegely curious student]
From: David Ford <david () LINUX COM>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:39:42 -0800
DA Smith wrote:
This has been posted to Slashdot and I saw one very good comment on Nanog about this. It bothers me, on the PEN-TEST level as many of us started out by simply looking around. And, from reading posts here and on Bug-Traq, still do. (The person in question details exactly what he did).
The person in question Andres (public) was looking around a crime scene. He states comparing it to a crime scene is preposterous but that begs to be answered, what is his definition of a crime scene? In my professional opinion as an investigator, yes he was in a crime scene and yes because his connections were slightly more than the normal, his activity is now suspect albeit low on the list. The normal visitor doesn't connect to a variety of ports and do zone transfers. This activity is surely what brought him above the noise level. Any investigator worth his beans would take note. Just as investigators are on the watch for people who visit a crime scene afterwards in real life, the feds will also watch. One of the most common traits with criminals is their desire to watch the ensuing activity. In cyber world, one of the most common traits is to check back and see if the site is still vulnerable, your backdoor is still there, and nobody else is claiming your territory. It's certainly unfortunate that an innocent person is caught up in the melee but not unexpected. People yammer about rights, invasion of privacy and et cetera, but it is not my right or expectation thereof to investigate a crime scene, particularly when I have no relation to it. If I step into such a situation, I must be prepared to answer why I was there and defend my activity. If you read the article Andres wrote, you'll note that they didn't take everything. They took only equipment that could have been used for this activity. He retains possession of several things he requested including mass storage discs. He appears to feel that the feds shouldn't have the ability to come in and "yank away for weeks or [longer] ..." Without this ability, any incriminating data can be destroyed in minutes if not seconds. Stop and weigh the balance for a moment then continue. Put yourself in the shoes of the victim. Do you want the purported criminal to be able to know the feds are coming and have the ability to destroy any evidence because the feds must wait outside for you to bring the computer to them? There isn't a perfect solution between law enforcement granted abilities and the rights of an individual. They have to be weighed. This isn't operation sundevil or even close to it. It's something that happens everyday to people. Someone gets nosey in the wrong place and the investigator comes knocking. The feds aren't "out to get you." I've been facing the feds several times due to cyber incidents and I've never had my equipment confiscated even when that was their intent when they arrived and the evidence was a whole lot more damning than port scans and zone transfers and I didn't carry an investigative business card. To summarise, looking around is fine, turning things over at a crime scene to see what's underneath is for the investigators, not bystanders. -d -- "The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: the chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'."
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Current thread:
- Re: [PEN-TEST] Implications for "Looking around?" [FBI confiscation of allegely curious student] David Ford (Nov 02)
- <Possible follow-ups>
- Re: [PEN-TEST] Implications for "Looking around?" [FBI confiscation of allegely curious student] David Ford (Nov 02)
- Re: [PEN-TEST] Implications for "Looking around?" [FBI confiscation of allegely curious student] Ben Ford (Nov 02)