nanog mailing list archives
BDP discussion pointers: was: Re pontification bloat (was 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton))
From: Jim Gettys <jg () freedesktop org>
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:28:08 -0500
On 01/27/2012 08:31 PM, Randy Bush wrote:
for those who say bufferbloat is a problem, do you have wred enabled on backbone or customer links?For *most backbone networks* it is a no-op on the backbone. To be more precise, if the backbone is at least 10x, and preferably more like 50x faster than the largest single TCP flow from any customer it will be nearly impossible to measure the performance difference between a short FIFO queue and a WRED queue.when a line card is designed to buffer the b*d of a trans-pac 40g, the oddities on an intra-pop link have been observed to spike to multiple seconds.
See the CACM article Bufferbloat: Dark Buffers in the Internet, in the January CACM, by Kathy Nichols and myself or online at: http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2012/1/144810-bufferbloat/fulltext The section entitled "Revisiting the Bandwidth Delay Product" is germain to the discussion here. Fundamentally, the b*d "rule" isn't really very useful under most circumstances, though it helps to understand what it tells you, and may be a useful upper bound under some circumstances, though very seldom for a network operator such as found on the NANOG list. The fundamental problem is most people don't know either the bandwidth, nor the delay. The BDP is what you need for a single long lived TCP flow; as soon as you have multiple flows, it's over-estimating the buffering needed, even if you know the bandwidth and the delay... And this work in particular for routers (or potentially switches) is important: Appenzeller, G., Keslassy, I., McKeown, N. 2004. Sizing router buffers. ACM SIGCOMM, Portland, OR, (August). http://yuba.stanford.edu/~nickm/papers/sigcomm2004-extended.pdf <http://yuba.stanford.edu/%7Enickm/papers/sigcomm2004-extended.pdf> Ultimately, we need an AQM algorithm that works so well, and requires no configuration, so that we can just always have it on and we can forget about it; (W)RED and friends aren't it; but it's the best we've got for the moment that you can actually use. It's hopeless to try to use it in the home, where we have very highly variable bandwidth. In backbone networks, the biggest reason I can see for enabling (W)RED may be for robustness sake: if you have a link and it congests, you can quickly be in a world of hurt. I wonder what happened in Japan after the earthquake.... And it should always be on on congested links you know about, of course. There is hope on this front, but it's early days yet. - Jim
Current thread:
- Re: pontification bloat (was 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton)), (continued)
- Re: pontification bloat (was 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton)) Leo Bicknell (Jan 27)
- Re: pontification bloat (was 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton)) Randy Bush (Jan 27)
- Re: pontification bloat (was 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton)) Leo Bicknell (Jan 27)
- Re: pontification bloat (was 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton)) Randy Bush (Jan 27)
- Re: pontification bloat (was 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton)) Leo Bicknell (Jan 27)
- Re: pontification bloat (was 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton)) Leo Bicknell (Jan 27)
- RE: pontification bloat (was 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton)) George Bonser (Jan 27)
- Re: pontification bloat (was 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton)) Jared Mauch (Jan 29)
- RE: pontification bloat (was 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton)) George Bonser (Jan 29)
- RE: pontification bloat (was 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton)) George Bonser (Jan 29)
- BDP discussion pointers: was: Re pontification bloat (was 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton)) Jim Gettys (Jan 28)
- Re: BDP discussion pointers: was: Re pontification bloat (was 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton)) Jim Gettys (Jan 28)
- Re: 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton) Leo Bicknell (Jan 27)
- Re: 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton) Ćukasz Bromirski (Jan 27)
- Re: 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton) Saku Ytti (Jan 28)
- Re: 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton) Masataka Ohta (Jan 28)
- Re: 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton) Saku Ytti (Jan 28)
- Re: 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton) Masataka Ohta (Jan 28)
- Re: 10GE TOR port buffers (was Re: 10G switch recommendaton) Saku Ytti (Jan 28)