Re: Internet Backbone Index

[Joe Shaw <jshaw () insync net>]

On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Jack Rickard wrote:

> If you want to draw a line of demarcation between a network and its
> performance, and a web server and its performance, you're free to do so.  I
> just probably won't buy into it.

Actually, one would think that if you are going to accurately portray
yourselves as doing a backbone examination, you'd do more than just check
web server performance.  You'd analyze reachability of other major sites
from your site over a period of time (wouldn't a month be great), not just
getting to a specific ISP's webserver.  

        I would almost bet that if you try to get to UUNet's web server,
there are times when it's not very reachable, or at least a little
sluggish.  But try going to one of the corporates sites they host.  Much
better performance.  I don't know the network design they have in place or
what the physical setup is, etc. and I'm pretty sure you don't either.
Therefore, by saying that you think your study servers a purpose, you
insult a lot of people out there who are easily mislead by your magazine.
There are enough marketing reports and half witted articles and reports
out their to confuse the average consumer.  I'd think that you'd be
ashamed to be part of them, instead of providing a service that's closer
to providing what you intentionally planned to do.  

        How accurate an indicator is checking your oil to see if your
car's in good shape? Granted, whitout oil, the car will not run well at
all, but if you neglect the transmission, the brakes, etc. then you're
just sticking your head in the sand or lazy.  I'd hope that if you're
going to provide this sort of information to anyone down to the average
person in a bookstore who picks up your magazine, that you'd at least do a
more thorough job.  The fact that the people who build these networks and
do this for a living are saying your study is laughable should tell you
something.  

        Information is power, but being misinformed makes for bad things.

Joe Shaw - jshaw<at>insync.net.nospam
NetAdmin - Insync Internet Services
Learn more, and you will never starve.

> On the actual concept that changing all the web servers will move the
> numbers: It might.  It might not.  I would probably bet at this point that
> there will be a lot of that going on among the non-moron crowd.  I'm kind
> of hoping for it anyway.  And then we'll see if the numbers move.  My sense
> is that they will move some, and not as much as most seem to think.  But
> it's true it could go the other way and be dramatic.  I'm open to whatever
> results derive.  
>
> Jack Rickard
>
> ----------
> > From: Justin W. Newton <justin () priori net>
> > To: Jack Rickard <jack.rickard () boardwatch com>; Stan Barber
> <sob () academ com>; vaden () texoma net; SEAN () SDG DRA COM; nanog () merit edu
> > Subject: Re: Internet Backbone Index
> > Date: Friday, June 27, 1997 2:50 PM
> >
> >
> > Jack,
> >     I believe that you are missing the point that measuring web server
> > response time is /not/ the equivalent of measuring backbone performance.
> >
> >
> > At 12:45 PM 6/27/97 -0600, Jack Rickard wrote:
> > > They could be.  The attempt is to factor that out.  ALL measuring agents
> > > applied to ALL the backbones.  And all contributed more or less equally
> to
> > > the end numbers.  If a particular agent ran on a Commodore 64 with a
> kluged
> > > copy of KA9Q, and another agent ran on an Sun Solaris, both results
> would
> > > go into the result pile for all 29 measured networks.   The net effect
> > > would be that the flaw would be in our "footprint" from which the
> > > measurements were taken.  This footprint can only be a rough
> approximation
> > > of end user distribution anyway. It would affect absolute values
> relative
> > > to zero, but the relative indexes between networks should not be
> affected. 
> > > Since we're looking at the relative relationship primarily, it wouldn't
> > > appear important.
> > >
> > >
> > > Jack Rickard
> > > ----------
> > > > From: Stan Barber <sob () academ com>
> > > > To: Justin W. Newton <justin () priori net>; Larry Vaden
> <vaden () texoma net>;
> > > Sean Donelan <SEAN () SDG DRA COM>; nanog () merit edu
> > > > Subject: Re: Internet Backbone Index
> > > > Date: Friday, June 27, 1997 1:54 PM
> > > >
> > > > Justin writes:
> > > > > ObAboutTopic:  This is possibly the most flawed study on the planet.
> > > > > Remind me to get a fast web server.  (And to think, we were going to
> > > put
> > > > > our web server in our office, behind a T-1, instead of in real
> estate
> > > near
> > > > > where the real bandwidth is that could be used for customers.).  
> > > >
> > > > There are many studies more flawed. Consider some of the studies that
> > > > the Tobacco Institute has released over the years about the affects of
> > > > smoking.
> > > >
> > > > Concerning Internet performance, there have always been a variety of
> ways
> > > > of measuring it. It all depends on what you are really trying to
> measure.
> > > > The Keynote study is attempting to measure something to which the
> average
> > > > Internet user (not engineers) can relate.  However, There are also
> > > clearly 
> > > > the possibility of artifacts in the data because of the testing
> machine's
> > > > TCP stack or other issues (Vern Paxson has covered these issues at
> NANOG 
> > > > and IETF meetings over the last few years). Checking their web site,
> > > their 
> > > > software appears to run on top of the TCP stacks of many systems, so
> the 
> > > > known artifacts of some of these platforms could be an issue.
> > > >
> > > > -- 
> > > > Stan   | Academ Consulting Services        |internet: sob () academ com
> > > > Olan   | For more info on academ, see this |uucp:
> > > {mcsun|amdahl}!academ!sob
> > > > Barber | URL- http://www.academ.com/academ |Opinions expressed are
> only
> > > mine.
> >
> > *********************************************************
> > Justin W. Newton                  voice: +1-415-482-2840    
> > Senior Network Architect            fax: +1-415-482-2844
> > PRIORI NETWORKS, INC.              http://www.priori.net
> > Director At Large, ISP/C           http://www.ispc.org
> > "The People You Know.  The People You Trust."
> > *********************************************************