Interesting People mailing list archives
Re Lauren's Blog: "Why We May Have to Cut Europe Off from the Internet"
From: "Dave Farber" <farber () gmail com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 10:54:39 -0700
Begin forwarded message:
From: "Patrick W. Gilmore" <patrick () ianai net> Date: June 11, 2018 at 10:44:24 AM PDT To: Dave Farber <dave () farber net>, Hasan Diwan <hasan.diwan () gmail com>, Lauren Weinstein <lauren () vortex com> Cc: "Patrick W. Gilmore" <patrick () ianai net> Subject: Re: [IP] Lauren's Blog: "Why We May Have to Cut Europe Off from the Internet"To which we who actually live in Europe have to remind you that (a) not all countries are bound by GDPR and (b) we are the world's richest economic area, so your companies will suffer a loss of profits.This is incorrect. The IMF, the World Bank, and the United Nations all list the US as larger than the EU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) Two out of three say the US is more then 10% larger than the EU, so this is not a minor difference.The "right to be forgotten" is merely the right to correct factually incorrect information. If somebody writes my name as "Diwan Hasan" instead of "Hasan Diwan", I can take it to court, submit my identification and the webpage would be ordered to change the name. Or if someone writes that "Hasan Diwan is a member of al-Mohajiroun" (a now-banned, British Islamist group), I could have this corrected by submitting my RESPECT Party membership card. This makes the process of data mining easier, not harder.This is also incorrect. You can ask for factually correct information to be removed. The rules around it are vague, so it is not clear where the line is. However, it is absolutely clear that removal of facts which are true, real, and verified can be done under the rule. After that, i gave up. While it took me 20-30 seconds to prove each of these wrong, I don’t see why I should do your research for you. If you like GDPR, that’s fine. If you don’t, that’s fine. Even if you don’t like it but think Lauren went too far, that’s fine. But let’s try to stick to the facts. This is not a US political debate. :-) -- TTFN, patrickOn Jun 8, 2018, at 19:20, Dave Farber <farber () gmail com> wrote: Begin forwarded message:From: Hasan Diwan <hasan.diwan () gmail com> Date: June 8, 2018 at 19:13:53 EDT To: "dave () farber net" <dave () farber net> Subject: Re: [IP] Lauren's Blog: "Why We May Have to Cut Europe Off from the Internet" [for IP, if you wish; comments inline; use my name] Fellow IP members,On Fri, 8 Jun 2018 at 14:33, Dave Farber <farber () gmail com> wrote: Begin forwarded message:From: Lauren Weinstein <lauren () vortex com> Date: June 8, 2018 at 3:23:17 PM EDT To: nnsquad () nnsquad org Subject: [ NNSquad ] Lauren's Blog: "Why We May Have to Cut Europe Off from the Internet" Why We May Have to Cut Europe Off from the Internet https://lauren.vortex.com/2018/06/08/why-we-may-have-to-cut-europe-off-from-the-internet It's not a joke. It's no hyperbole. If the European Union continues its current course, the rest of the world may well have to consider how to effectively "cut off" Europe from the rest of the Internet -- to create an "Island Europe" in an Internet communications context.To which we who actually live in Europe have to remind you that (a) not all countries are bound by GDPR and (b) we are the world's richest economic area, so your companies will suffer a loss of profits.For those of us involved with the Net since its early origins, the specter of network fragmentation has long been an outcome that we've sorely hoped to avoid. But continuing EU actions could create an environment where mechanisms to tightly limit Europe's interactions with the rest of the global Internet may be necessary -- not imposed with pleasure, not with vindictiveness, but for the protection of free speech around the rest of the planet. The EU will later this month be voting on a nightmarish copyright control scheme that would impose requirements for real-time "copyright filtering" of virtually all content uploaded to major and many minor Internet sites, with no protections against trolling, and the certainty of inappropriately blocking vast quantities of public domain and other materials, with no real protections against errors and no effective avenues for appeals. Please see: "On June 20, an EU committee will vote on an apocalyptically stupid, internet-destroying copyright proposal that'll censor everything from Tinder profiles to Wikipedia" ( https://boingboing.net/2018/06/07/thanks-axel-voss.html ). Even if this specific horrific proposal is voted down, it's important to review how we came to this juncture, as the EU has increasingly accelerated its program to become the Internet's global censorship czar, in ways that even countries like China and Russia haven't attempted to date. As far back as 2012 and earlier, in "The 'Right to Be Forgotten': A Threat We Dare Not Forget" ( https://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000938.html ), I warned of the insidious nature of content censorship schemes flowing forth from Europe, and I've consistently warned that -- like the proverbial camel's nose under the tent -- Europe would never be satisfied with any concessions offered by Internet firms.The "right to be forgotten" is merely the right to correct factually incorrect information. If somebody writes my name as "Diwan Hasan" instead of "Hasan Diwan", I can take it to court, submit my identification and the webpage would be ordered to change the name. Or if someone writes that "Hasan Diwan is a member of al-Mohajiroun" (a now-banned, British Islamist group), I could have this corrected by submitting my RESPECT Party membership card. This makes the process of data mining easier, not harder.Time has borne out my predictions. In ensuing years, the EU has expanded its demands until now it considers itself in key respects to be the global arbiter of what should or should not be seen by Internet users around the world.It doesn't consider itself as such -- it is. GDPR wouldn't be necessary if the search engines could be trusted to vet the indices for truth, but as has been shown, Google and its competitors can not be trusted with this power.Like other of civilization's information control tyrants, a taste of censorship powers by the EU has inevitably led to utter censorship gluttony, and the sense that "we know best what those stupid little people should be allowed to see" is as old as human history, long predating modern communications systems. European citizens are of course free to elect whatever sorts of governments that they choose. If that choice is for information control tyrants whose pleasure is to victimize their own citizens, so be it.Nobody elects the EU Commission. This was one of the complaints of the Brexit camp. Who do I elect? My local MP. They are most likely backbenchers (not in party leadership), so have little influence on policy. I also elect an MEP, who is a member of a bloc. Finally, I elect a local councillor, who is responsible for rubbish collection and little else. -- HBut if Europe continues to insist that its tyranny of censorship and information control must be honored by the rest of the world, then the rest of the world will be reluctantly forced to treat Europe as an Internet pariah, and use all possible technical means to isolate Europe in manners that best protect everyone else's freedom of Internet speech.-- OpenPGP: https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xFEBAD7FFD041BBA1 If you wish to request my time, please do so using bit.ly/hd1AppointmentRequest. Si vous voudrais faire connnaisance, allez a bit.ly/hd1AppointmentRequest. 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- Re Lauren's Blog: "Why We May Have to Cut Europe Off from the Internet" Dave Farber (Jun 08)
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- Re Lauren's Blog: "Why We May Have to Cut Europe Off from the Internet" Dave Farber (Jun 09)
- Re Lauren's Blog: "Why We May Have to Cut Europe Off from the Internet" Dave Farber (Jun 10)
- Re Lauren's Blog: "Why We May Have to Cut Europe Off from the Internet" Dave Farber (Jun 11)