Interesting People mailing list archives
Re: Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer
From: David Farber <dave () farber net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 03:41:38 -0400
It would be nice if I could play it on my iphone!! djf Begin forwarded message: From: Gordon Jacobson <gaj () portman com> Date: October 20, 2008 11:51:56 PM EDT To: dave () farber net Subject: Re: [IP] Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer David -Here is a one hour video of Niall Ferguson's recent lecture at the Harvard Business School's 100th Annaversary.
He encompasses Taleb's Black Swan concept within his lecture and in essence he brilliantly and entertainingly assesses the nature of the current financial meltdown, comparing it to a Darwinian event, cataclysmic in scope and THE destructive maelstrom out of which a new set of financial cultures will emerge.
Take the time. It is really worthwhile. http://www.hbs.edu/centennial/businesssummit/nferguson.html#begin GAJ At 05:02 PM 10/20/2008, you wrote:
Begin forwarded message: From: Jon Urdan <jon () lambeaucap com> Date: October 20, 2008 2:06:06 PM EDT To: "'Savage, Christopher'" <ChrisSavage () dwt com>, <dave () farber net> Cc: <dpreed () reed com> Subject: RE: [IP] Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer The Black Swan concept is partly behind the current financial crisis, but is different from what Einhorn is talking about. There are two groups of 'quants' on Wall Street. The first group usually have University PHDs and develop trading strategies based on sophisticated models. At this point, everyone's models go beyond bell curves to include, at minimum, "fat" distributions and discontinuity. Despite their apparent sophistication, almost everyone seems to have underestimated the volatility in the mortgage market. Einhorn is talking about the second group of 'quants.' This group is probably not what you would consider 'quants' at all. They are practitioners in charge of risk management. They may be PHDs, but are morelikely to be accountants (at corporate level) or MBAs (line managers ordepartment level). These practitioners employ models developed by the first group of quants, but don't have responsibility or the skills to critique the models. If you look at the banks that did not get crushed in the panic (e.g., Goldman Sachs), it is usually because their risk managers ignored the models and decided to hedge or reduce their exposure to mortgages. -----Original Message----- From: Savage, Christopher [mailto:ChrisSavage () dwt com] Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 8:36 PM To: Jon Urdan; dave () farber net Cc: dpreed () reed com Subject: RE: [IP] Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answerI'm not a quant by any means but this sounds like the kind of thing that Nicholas Taleb has been griping about for years in books like The BlackSwan. His basic point is that market swings obey a power law distribution but that the models essentially assume a normal Gaussian bell curve. If he's right then the models will work great, until they inexplicably (to the model builders) blow up. Is that part of what's going on here? Chris S.-----Original Message----- From: Jon Urdan [mailto:jon () lambeaucap com] Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 8:44 PM To: dave () farber net Cc: Savage, Christopher; dpreed () reed com Subject: [IP] Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer I don't think this is for IP generally, but I thought the two of youmightwant to see this speech by David Einhorn from April. Despite whatLehmanwould like you to believe, Einhorn is one of the good guys and isreveredin the community of value investors. The "mathematical models" that investment banks used to measure riskwereactually pretty simple. If a risk was too small, it was assigned avalueof zero. If you leveraged your balance sheet thirty times with AAAcredits,your risk was still 30 x 0 = 0! -----Original Message----- From: David Farber [mailto:dave () farber net] Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 5:04 PM To: ip Subject: [IP] Re: Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer Begin forwarded message: From: "Savage, Christopher" <ChrisSavage () dwt com> Date: October 18, 2008 12:40:26 PM EDT To: "David P. Reed" <dpreed () reed com>, <dave () farber net> Cc: "ip" <ip () v2 listbox com> Subject: RE: [IP] Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer David, Well, if we step back from the "everything should be unregulated" mantra, which seems, in the Grand Scheme of Things, to have prettymuchjust played out its dominance of public policy debates, I'm still at aloss to understand why -- if exposure to what I'm gathering are thecasino-like aspects of CDSs is a problem for the overall economy -- wecan't just call the game off. ("I'm SHOCKED to discover that gambling is going on on WallStreet...")The two choices seem to me to be that CDSs are either (a) essentiallyaform of insurance, that we could declare void because the issuers werenot properly regulated, etc. (and then, if we are so inclined, set up reserve requirements, etc. to allow them to go forward) or (b) essentially a form of wagering contract, which we can declare void onthe same theories that various states have declared wagering contractsvoid since time out of mind. Barry suggests that if we do this we are somehow violating thesanctityof the Rule of Law, but I have a hard time seeing why that would be true. Am I missing something? Chris S.-----Original Message----- From: David P. Reed [mailto:dpreed () reed com] Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 11:40 AM To: dave () farber net Cc: ip; Savage, Christopher Subject: Re: [IP] Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer Revoking gamblers' lottery tickets? Nice move, unless the gamblersfundyour campaigns, as they do in this case. I'm sure Milton Friedman would have argued that the more gamblingthereis, especially unregulated, the better for the economy. The mathematical models prove it, by the way. There has never been a mathematical economic model that demonstrates that contingentsecuritiesharm economies, and lots of "evidence" that "prediction markets""alwayswork". A mathematical economist who stood up to say that "predictionmarkets"are a bad idea (or even might not always be wonderful) would belaughedout of the profession, unless they came up with extraordinary proof. It's a career limiting move for anyone entering the math side of US economics profession to be skeptical of the idea that price doesn't reflect information perfectly. You have to pay homage to the holywrit.David Farber wrote:Begin forwarded message: *From: *"Savage, Christopher" <ChrisSavage () dwt com <mailto:ChrisSavage () dwt com>> *Date: *October 17, 2008 5:03:05 PM EDT *To: *<dave () farber net <mailto:dave () farber net>> *Subject: **RE: [IP] Re: Fears of Lehman's CDS derivatives hauntmarkets*Dave, I'd appreciate it if you could pass this on to IP and see if anyone has any thoughts. As I understand it, CDSs are basically a form of insurance, wheretheinsured-against event is that XYZ Co. will default on someobligation.What would happen if any and all CDS contracts were declared voidasin violation of public policy, except, possibly, for CDS contracts purchased by someone who lent directly to XYZ Co.? It seems to me that if the contract is held by the entity that lent money to XYZ Co., they would be deprived of something that theycouldreasonably be looking for - protection against a loss on a loantheythemselves made. But I have heard that one could buy, in effect, speculative CDSs,sothat Acme Speculators, Inc., could buy what amounts to "insurance" against XYZ Co. defaulting on its loans, even if Acme Speculatorshasno direct exposure to that loss. Would anything really bad happen if all of these speculative CDSswerejust declared void? Chris S. Begin forwarded message: From: Newmedia () aol com <mailto:Newmedia () aol com> Date: October 17, 2008 9:37:42 PM EDT To: dave () farber net <mailto:dave () farber net> Dave: Credit Default Swap (CDS) are, as the name says, a "swap" (i.e.shiftof risk) in the case of a default on a credit obligation. They are not "insurance" but instead a private contract. Because there isnounderlying obligation for "reserves" (i.e. gold in the vault) andnodirect attachment to the original credit issuance (i.e. they are derivative instruments), there is no limit to how many of these contracts can be written. The global CDS volume is estimated by the derivatives trade association to be $60-70 Trillion. There are many other kinds of derivatives, all of which may total $500T+. Most of these are interest rate and currency derivatives and they have been aroundforalong time. The CDS business is fairly new (i.e. the past 5 years) and, therefore, has never been tested. Until now, of course. All these derivatives cannot and should not be "outlawed" orsummarilydeclared "void." While you can debate how good or bad they may be, they are integral to the current global financial system. They are simply business contracts, so they are valid and legal. The "problem" is not that they are bad that they are hidden. Nooneknows who did what with whom and, therefore, who is really at risk. The regulation that is certainly coming will most like be to try to make them "transparent" -- which means that governments willrequirereporting on who is on the hook for what. Since banks and other financial institutions are regulated businesses, the rules willlikelydefine how much of what kinds of derivatives each sort of businesscanown, issue, etc. Hope that helps. There is a great book on how derivatives gotstarted-- written by a ex-trader -- that pulls no punches on the stupidity and greed of those involved called "Traders, Guns and Money." Itisalso well written, so I recommend it for anyone who is interested. Mark Stahlman New York City------------------------------------------- Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/ Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
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Current thread:
- Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer David Farber (Oct 18)
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- Re: Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer David Farber (Oct 18)
- Re: Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer David Farber (Oct 18)
- Re: Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer David Farber (Oct 19)
- Re: Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer David Farber (Oct 19)
- Re: Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer David Farber (Oct 19)
- Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer David Farber (Oct 20)
- Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer David Farber (Oct 20)
- Re: Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer David Farber (Oct 21)
- Re: Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer David Farber (Oct 21)
- Re: Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer David Farber (Oct 22)
- Re: Credit Default Swap (CDS) question and answer David Farber (Oct 22)