Interesting People mailing list archives
more on P2P Fuels Global Bandwidth Binge
From: David Farber <dave () farber net>
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:34:08 -0400
------ Forwarded Message From: Bob Frankston <Bob19-0501 () bobf frankston com> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:25:51 -0400 To: 'Brett Glass' <brett () lariat org>, <dave () farber net> Subject: RE: [IP] more on P2P Fuels Global Bandwidth Binge I'm trying to figure out how to get past talking past each other. Reading Lakoff's Moral Politics has been very useful in trying to understand the difficulty in communicating. I purposely chose questions and words that maximize the differences in world views in order to get past the misunderstanding that comes from seeming to agree. I want to try because these issues recur in many policy discussions. Before I get into the specific issues I don't want to lose sight of my main point -- the importance of increasing connectivity rather than doling out scarcity. That's Tom Friedman's point and the big issue in terms of our economy and our future. Somehow that issue keeps getting lost in some other concerns. I want to figure out how we get into arguments about policy issues that I classify as "morality". Conversely -- how do we manage to not discuss the "Flat World" issues that leave Jackson Hole disconnected from the world. I think you are puzzled about what I'm saying because the issues seem simple and obvious. Your comment about encryption -- "When the primary use of a tool is to break the law ..." -- is interesting. I think that the primary purpose of locking a door in NYC is to reduce crime. Along these lines it's irresponsible of me to send my financial data across the net unencrypted and, by extension, why should I post any information for the public to read? What is the difference between encrypting my communications and "hiding" information in my house? The US constitution is very explicit in saying that I do not have the onus of posting my information in the clear. OK, if you want, the Bill of Rights. But maybe the issue lies in your comment "our Constitution prohibits vague laws." Since I view out language as fundamentally vague and ambiguous I don't know where to even start. If we add political necessity to this then laws are vague enough to permit agreement as long as people don't ask too many questions. This becomes even more problematic when we get technological change the redefines the concepts and puts a lie to basic assumptions. If you find bits on my hard disk that represent a movie how do you know if those bits are legal or not? Given the previous go-arounds I won't try to elaborate on different scenarios except to emphasize that you can't tell from the bits. The law might say the legality depends on the path but technically we know the bits are independent of the path and completely equivalent so we can argue that it there's a legal path then the bits are legal. Are you saying that we should judge the probability of the path? What if you don't know about the legal path? This is all very vague and fundamentally vague. I did try to give you an option of telling your users there are capacity limits without resorting to P2P -- you can say that P2P is likely to exceed the limit. That's not a violation of end-to-end as such -- you are talking just about the bits. Perhaps you are driven by fear of the bad things that may happen while I focus more on creating opportunity and accepting risk. Too bad we've got this amazing fixation on airplanes -- they create a model of point vulnerability that's far out of proportion to reality and divert us from real threats. And the ultimately threat is economic not point attacks. -----Original Message----- From: Brett Glass [mailto:brett () lariat org] Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 17:48 To: Bob Frankston; dave () farber net Subject: RE: [IP] more on P2P Fuels Global Bandwidth Binge (I've finally gotten a minute to breathe after a solid week of work on the wireless network. So, I have a limited amount of time to pick up this thread.) At 09:57 PM 4/17/2005, Bob Frankston wrote:
I'm not trying to be insulting -- just using alternative phrasing to emphasize the point.
It's not "alternative phrasing," Bob. Please look back at your earlier messages. Not only are you imputing to me views I do not hold, but you are doing so in a way that's very insulting.
It actually does take a lawyer to figure out what's legal and not and then it takes a judge.
No. It takes a judge to decide how the law bears on a particular case. And it doesn't take a lawyer to figure out a law, even if it's a bad one. Remember, our Constitution prohibits vague laws.
Common law is about interpretation and precedent. It becomes more complicated because lawyers are typically
not
technologists and make grievous errors of fact. Back in 1970 I did take a joint class with Harvard Law and they were
begging
for people with a technical background. The reason I keep harping on the legal issue is that you keep framing the issue as one or morality.
Again, you keep using the world "morality," which implies some form of dogma and/or unthinking belief. The fact, plain and simple, is that disseminating illegal copies of music is against the law. And the vast majority of the transactions we see taking place via Kazaa and similar software are illegal.
If you simply said that you aren't selling the capacity for P2P connections I wouldn't raise the issue at all.
Sure you would. You'd complain that I was "breaking end-to-end."
You're the one that brought in what I see as an irrelevant issue -- the purpose of the bits and the ethical agenda.
In other words, you believe that what you're doing with the network doesn't matter? This is a very dangerous stance to take, Bob. Because if you cannot distinguish between legal and illegal uses of a tool, or if that tool is overwhelmingly used for illegal activity and only occasionally for legal purposes, it can and will be regulated and perhaps outlawed.
I feel insulted because as an advocate of those activities I feel you're accusing me of pandering to criminals.
In a very real way, you're covering for them by advocating against any practical way to detect, deter, and/or stop their activities.
It would be no different than if you had told me that I can say anything I want as long as it was moral (or, if you prefer, ethical). You are simply saying you are selling a certain kind of service based on statistical assumptions that are violated by P2P. Does it matter whether
you
approve of the use?
If the use is illegal, it doesn't matter whether or not I approve of it.
Of course everything will be encrypted -- BECAUSE I AM GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT IT IS ALL ENCRYPTED. Even though I'm too distractible that's my priority at the moment.
This, Bob, would be the worst possible thing you could do. Do you want to see encryption outlawed? Given the volume of P2P traffic, you would make it a statistical near-certainty that any encrypted connection traversing the Internet is being used for illegal activity. You will thus create justification for strong restrictions on encryption -- or even making it illegal, which is something which many of us have fought hard to prevent. When the primary use of a tool is to break the law, that tool is quickly restricted or outlawed. --Brett ------ End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------------- You are subscribed as lists-ip () insecure org To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/
Current thread:
- more on P2P Fuels Global Bandwidth Binge Dave Farber (Apr 15)
- <Possible follow-ups>
- more on P2P Fuels Global Bandwidth Binge David Farber (Apr 24)