funsec mailing list archives
Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers
From: "Tomas L. Byrnes" <tomb () byrneit net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:40:40 -0700
So much to reply to....
-----Original Message----- From: funsec-bounces () linuxbox org [mailto:funsec-bounces () linuxbox org] On Behalf Of der Mouse Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:06 PM To: funsec () linuxbox org Subject: Re: [funsec] Rage against spammers and telemarketersThis post and your one regarding DDT have shown you for what you are: a misanthropic elitist who is trying to have his religion (Gaianism) established by law.Hmm. Thank you for stating it so clearly. Can you explain exactly what you mean by Gaianism? I'm not entirely clear within myself on my religion, and you appear to be able to see into me more clearly than I can.
[TLB:] Earth-worship. A belief in the earth as an organism, and valuing it above any particular organism or group of organisms on it.
I'm also wondering how I'm trying to get any of this into law.
[TLB:] Banning DDT, Endangered Species Act, closing large areas of coast and parkland to human access, population control, etc. etc. Perhaps you aren't personally involved, but the politicians who espouse the positions you support have and are implementing policies that place animals above people. I
wasn't aware I was trying to have any law changed (well, not in any way that's relevant to this; I _am_ aware of working for anti-spam legislation in some minor ways). Could you explain that? I'm wondering if I've been lobbying in my sleep or something.It's OK that you don't believe in a Democratic Republic,Aside from the contradictions in the term, I believe in what I think you mean by it; I've _seen_ some. (Note that this doesn't mean I like them; also doesn't mean I don't.)[TLB:]
[TLB:] [TLB:] A Democratic Republic is a limited representative government with democratically elected representatives. There is no contradiction. It's a hybrid. Pure Democracy rapidly becomes mob rule followed by a dictatorship, and a pure republic degenerates into an autocratic oligarchy, based on historical experience.
human rights trumping those of animals, or free markets, and at least you are honest about it.You appear to be using "believe in" to mean something more like "support" or "consider good" than the usual sense of the term (which is more like "be convinced of the existence of").
[TLB:] [TLB:] Correct. With that rereading: I
believe that a republic is one of the half-dozen or so forms of government that's reasonably workable at modern population densities.
[TLB:] [TLB:] Define workable? And for whom does it work? I guess it depends on your goal. Political stability is not a goal in and of itself, IMO, if the requirement is effective enslavement of the populace. I believe that peace is a product of tyranny, and not a goal. The world needs conflict, because change and adaptation creates conflict. The trick is keeping that conflict manageable.
I believe that human rights trump animal rights in many cases, but I also believe that many so-called "rights" are nothing of the sort, and some that are shouldn't be. (Some businesses, for example, appear to think they have some kind of right to make a profit with their current business plan, even after the world has changed enough to render that plan unworkable.)
[TLB:] [TLB:] That's clearly not a right. You have the right to pursue happiness, not a guarantee of finding it, no matter what the Socialist/Populist/Affirmative action crowd peddle, or well connected businesspeople. Seeing Hillary Rosen on CNN as a political commentator makes me want to kill my TV, as they never point out her real background. Clearly payoff for the good job she did for Warner Bros. I also believe many of the cases said to be human
rights trumping animal rights are actually human convenience and greed stomping on animal rights (to the extent nonhuman animals _have_ rights; most "rights" are human inventions).
[TLB:] [TLB:] Agreed, I would define a right as those things you have that require the actions of others to be taken from you, as opposed to things that require the actions of others for you to have. Thus, you have a right to life, but not to food or health care. Those latter may be part of a social contract, but they are not innate human rights.
Free markets - I'm not sure I believe in them. I don't think I've ever seen an example of one, and with good reason; I suspect such a thing, unless it formed only a small part of a society, would turn into a particularly nasty form of plutocracy, bordering on kleptocracy.
[TLB:] [TLB:] That's not a free market. Regulation is required to keep a market free. Anti-trust monopoly and cartel busting is as important as enforcing contracts in keeping markets free and functioning. Our recent troubles have been the result of forced lending (the community reinvestment act) and cornering of the market for credit by a very small number of closely related superbanks, who share BODs and shareholders, many of whom are politically connected (and now in government), not a free market. That the markets weren't free was the result of regulation, not the failure of it (except the lack of enforcement of anti-trust. If a business is too big to fail, then it's too big, period.) (The
scientist in me wants to perform the experiment. The humanist shudders at the risk of making life nasty, brutish, and probably short for an entire population.) Even the freeest markets I've seen have had regulations of various sorts imposed.This was the reason Madison insisted on the second amendment. Lest the government be perverted by an unaccountable elite.Hasn't worked very well, has it?
[TLB:] [TLB:] It's worked better than anything that has been tried everywhere else. _______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list.
Current thread:
- Rage against spammers and telemarketers Alex Eckelberry (Jul 22)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Charles Miller (Jul 22)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers der Mouse (Jul 22)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Valdis . Kletnieks (Jul 22)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers der Mouse (Jul 22)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Tomas L. Byrnes (Jul 22)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers der Mouse (Jul 22)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Tomas L. Byrnes (Jul 22)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers der Mouse (Jul 23)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Tomas L. Byrnes (Jul 23)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Dan Kaminsky (Jul 23)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Tomas L. Byrnes (Jul 23)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Nick FitzGerald (Jul 24)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers der Mouse (Jul 22)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah (Jul 23)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Charles Miller (Jul 22)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Valdis . Kletnieks (Jul 22)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Tomas L. Byrnes (Jul 22)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers John C. A. Bambenek, GCIH, CISSP (Jul 23)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Nick FitzGerald (Jul 22)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Tomas L. Byrnes (Jul 23)
- Re: Rage against spammers and telemarketers Nick FitzGerald (Jul 23)