funsec mailing list archives
Re: Apparently Milgram is still right
From: Gadi Evron <ge () linuxbox org>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 01:51:26 -0600 (CST)
On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Tomas L. Byrnes wrote:
I should have added, that what is also taught to all soldiers is that just because you can, or are told, to do something, doesn't mean you should. Many of these techniques are taught so that we can learn how to resist them. I think a lot of the problem is the lack of moral education in society in general. What is noteworthy about Abu Ghraib is that the soldiers involved were all relatively junior, and not Regular Army.
I will stop reading here. Moral education can be determined by whoever decides what's concensus for morals this year. Analytical and critical thinking, on the other hand, as well as awareness of emotions (erm..) are something else entirely. How much of that is the army going to waste on soldiers?
As far as Guantanamo goes: (says he sensing the rising hue and cry) I hold with John McCain on the matter, and he, who knows like no other elected official in the US about torture, was opposed to it from the first. If we become what we seek to defeat, the enemy has won.-----Original Message----- From: funsec-bounces () linuxbox org [mailto:funsec-bounces () linuxbox org] On Behalf Of Tomas L. Byrnes Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:40 PM To: Gadi Evron Cc: funsec () linuxbox org; Alex Eckelberry; Rob,grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right All are taught at the war college.-----Original Message----- From: Gadi Evron [mailto:ge () linuxbox org] Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:26 PM To: Tomas L. Byrnes Cc: Alex Eckelberry; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah; funsec () linuxbox org; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com Subject: RE: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Tomas L. Byrnes wrote:The experiment is a dual one: 1: How far can someone be manipulated. 2: Are people really such sheep? My unscientific gut says that if you took the sample primarily fromtheUS Military, you'd get lots of demurs. The average Joe doesn't know what voltage is likely to hurt, or whatthelaws of land warfare are. I think all this proves is that humans are highly influenced bytheirsocial environment.Read up on (YouTube will do): Standford Prison Experiment Books to grab: Hogan's on cults (forgot the name), Influence byCialdini-----Original Message----- From: Gadi Evron [mailto:ge () linuxbox org] Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:04 PM To: Alex Eckelberry Cc: Tomas L. Byrnes; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah; funsec () linuxbox org; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com Subject: RE: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Alex Eckelberry wrote:True, and there is a point of ethics vs. morals. But in the end, there's a line that, IMHO, shouldn't be crossed.The participants themselves were manipulated. Their ethics arefine,they are simply not aware of what's going on or how to resist it. Smart people as we may be, we all treat dozens of thingsautomatically,which can be abused. Belief in authority is one thing.. trainingforsuspended disbelief in movies is another. The ethical issue here is the experiment being conducted.Besides, at a purely ethical level, torture is a low-quality interrogation technique. It's overrated in its effectiveness, and creates boomerang effects which don't benefit an overall cause. Nevertheless, even arguing torture at a logical level is difficultforme. It's just reprehensible, not because of some pacificistideology:Because beating the living shit out of someone for informationbringsusto the level of animals, and that's what we've been trying toevolvefrom for a very long time. Something Matthew Alexander spoke and wrote of recently: http://snipurl.com/8wosv Alex -----Original Message----- From: funsec-bounces () linuxbox org[mailto:funsec-bounces () linuxbox org]On Behalf Of Tomas L. Byrnes Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 8:19 PM To: Gadi Evron; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah Cc: funsec () linuxbox org; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right I guess it depends on who you think you owe an ethical duty to,doesn'tit.-----Original Message----- From: funsec-bounces () linuxbox org [mailto:funsec-bounces () linuxbox org]On Behalf Of Gadi Evron Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 4:11 PM To: Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah Cc: funsec () linuxbox org; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannahwrote:People are still willing to torture people, when told to do sobyanauthority.http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/-/2/hi/health/7791278.stm This may explain some recent happenings, but it is stilldisturbing,nonetheless.We in infosec, and members of society as a whole, have to pushharderon theethics front.What does this have to do with ethics? It's a trick question, think before answering. :)====================== (quote inserted randomly by PegasusMailer)rslade () vcn bc ca slade () victoria tc carslade () computercrime orgThis day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that Ihaveset before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life.... - Deuteronomy30:19victoria.tc.ca/techrev/rms.htmblogs.securiteam.com/index.php/archives/author/p1/_______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list._______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list._______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list._______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list.
_______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list.
Current thread:
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right, (continued)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Tomas L. Byrnes (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Alex Eckelberry (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Tomas L. Byrnes (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Alex Eckelberry (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Tomas L. Byrnes (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Tomas L. Byrnes (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Gadi Evron (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Tomas L. Byrnes (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Gadi Evron (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Tomas L. Byrnes (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Tomas L. Byrnes (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Gadi Evron (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Paul Ferguson (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Blue Boar (Dec 22)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Tomas L. Byrnes (Dec 22)