Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: UTTER HORSESHIT: [was January 15 is Personal Firewall Day, help the cause]
From: <bart2k () hushmail com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:48:53 -0800
So if the point of PFW Awareness Day, is to make the average "Joe" or "Jane" more IT security aware.....would we as memebers of the IT security community not do more good to have a "Complete Disclosure Day" instead of a mis-leading, tease, buy-my-product day ??? If your true intentions are to show the world what surrounds them in the vast dark room that they are in, does it make more sense to: - light a match to guide them with 0r - flip the wall light switch on ???? On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:51:15 -0800 Mary Landesman <mlande () bellsouth net> wrote:
Interpretation is subjective, but I have always interpreted the Sam Spade rant to be directed at the alerting many of these PFWs do, vs. the actual effectiveness. In fact, his point seems to be to get a hardware- based firewall. This isn't an option for the "Annie's" of this world. Properly used, a PFW provides excellent adjunct protection and, I believe, is a must-have. In fact, even when hardware-based firewalls are available,
a properly configured PFW can prevent the scenario played out over and over again with Blaster - laptops piggybacking the infection past the perimeter defenses (i.e., hand-carried in through the front door) and then wreaking havoc once inside. Had these enterprises also employed PFWs, that would not have occurred. (Of course, there are many reasons a PFW in the enterprise could be problematic and I do recognize that - but this isn't the focus of the discussion). NO solution is immune from user-error. Thus, folks who want to help out their friends and neighbors (and the Internet as a whole), should not just recommend a PFW, but take the time to show the person how to use it properly. And, yes, part of that should involve disabling alerting where prudent and taking a few moments to configure the appropriate trusted apps. Doing this will ensure the best chance (though never 100%) of a PFW working properly and effectively on "Annie's" computer. I use a NAT+firewall for my home network. But I also use a PFW. Why? It's great policy management. If I turn on a system my son also uses, I can keep his chat and other superfluous apps from connecting while I do whatever it is I need. In the Sam Spade article, it is clear he is frustrated with user inquiries into why something is alerting or what something in the log means. And his frustration is completely understandable. However, I think it is disservice to somehow interpret his frustration as an argument that PFWs are bad ideas. For many, they provide the best means of protection accessible to a particular breed of user. And, as such, their use should be encouraged. With proper training, of course. And yes, some malware can disable it. This is a fairly common tactic with some email worms. But that simply underscores the need to educate users about email - it is not, IMO, an indictment of PFWs nor is it a reason to not use one. Using your house analogy, that would be like telling someone not to bother locking their front door, because an intruder could come in through the back and unlock the front one... Better to learn to lock both doors, use the peephole, etc. Regards, Mary Landesman Antivirus About.com Guide http://antivirus.about.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik van Straten" <emvs.fd.3FB4D11C () cpo tn tudelft nl> To: <full-disclosure () lists netsys com> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] UTTER HORSESHIT: [was January 15 is Personal Firewall Day, help the cause] "http-equiv () excite com" <1 () malware com>:We hereby reject this utter horseshit unreservedly.Agreed - when it's intended to "protect" aunt Annie's Xmas present. It just makes NO SENSE to have PC's listening on lots of ports, by default on any interface, and then add a PFW to prevent anyone from accessing them. (much like building a wall in front of your house because your doors and Windows(TM) have broken locks). In particular because most Annie's have no clue what IP is, and undesired egress traffic easily bypasses PFW's (if the malware hasn't shut down the darn thing right away). Classic PFW = Snake Oil: http://www.samspade.org/d/firewalls.html If Annie's weren't members of Administrators, and members of Administrators would not have access to apps like IE and OE, and WindowsUpdate would not require admin privs to download, and there wouldn't be so many privesc sploitz, and the FS and registry would have much tighter perms by default, PFW's *would* make sense - for blocking undesired egress traffic. That is, provided that the PFW reliably starts before net I/O is possible, runs in "Safe Mode With Networking", and is not crowded with bugs itself. Cheers, Erik _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
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Current thread:
- Re: UTTER HORSESHIT: [was January 15 is Personal Firewall Day, help the cause], (continued)
- Re: UTTER HORSESHIT: [was January 15 is Personal Firewall Day, help the cause] Ron DuFresne (Jan 16)
- Re: UTTER HORSESHIT: [was January 15 is Personal Firewall Day, help the cause] Gregory A. Gilliss (Jan 15)
- Re: UTTER HORSESHIT: [was January 15 is Personal Firewall Day, help the cause] Mary Landesman (Jan 15)
- Re: UTTER HORSESHIT: [was January 15 is Personal Firewall Day, help the cause] Gregory A. Gilliss (Jan 15)
- Re: UTTER HORSESHIT: [was January 15 is Personal Firewall Day, help the cause] Mike Shaw (Jan 15)
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- netlux.org down? :-( Exibar (Jan 15)
- netlux.org down? :-( Exibar (Jan 15)
- Re: UTTER HORSESHIT: [was January 15 is Personal Firewall Day, help the cause] bart2k (Jan 15)