RE: Is a career change to Computer Forensics fantasy or can it be reality?

["Justin Ross" <RossJ () sddpc org>]

** Routed Mail.  Please reply when completed **

This is a great thread for a myriad of reasons. Certification isn't necessary to qualify as an expert witness; however, 
a career in comp. forensics will most likely lead to the witness stand (as an expert or otherwise) eventually. 
Certifications could make the experts opinion "weigh heavier" over another, and increase the credibility... experience 
without certifications could as well.

I'm reminded of an excellent book on the topic of computer forensics and expert witness testimony that addresses this 
particular issue and many others (not a sales pitch, I have no monetary interest in the book and I get no money from 
the link, just an excellent book on the topic IMHO):

"A discussion of the film My Cousin Vinny offers a lighthearted account of the problems that a technical expert 
encounters while testifying in court. In the film, the community of expertise represented by the character Mona Lisa 
Vito (played to perfection by Marisa Tomei) is that of the automobile mechanic. This particular community reminds us 
that certain roles associated with IT are rapidly becoming as commonly accepted as those of the car mechanic or washing 
machine repairperson. That these areas of expertise are generally recognized and often encountered illustrates another 
aspect of the community of interest. In this scenario, too many members claim an expertise with too little 
self-regulation, peer review, and evaluation by a recognized community of professionals. This erodes the ability to 
separate the charlatans from the qualified and recognized practitioners of the IT trades."1

Certifications and experience can go a long way into helping a case, but ultimately "the expert with all the facts and 
the competence and experience to comprehend their meaning wins"1 

A must read for anyone in computer forensics IMO:
1 - quoted from  A Guide to Forensic Testimony: The Art and Practice of Presenting Testimony as an Expert Technical 
Witness
(http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Forensic-Testimony-Presenting-Technical/dp/0201752794/sr=8-1/qid=1166043917/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-1439725-4190364?ie=UTF8&s=books)
    

Justin.Ross
SDDPC

> > > "Murda Mcloud" <murdamcloud () bigpond com> 12/12/2006 10:44:51 PM >>>
This is quite an interesting article relating to this point-I thought Paula
simply meant that the expert had to be 'tested' so to speak before being
allowed to be heard in a trial. 

http://www.scl.org/editorial.asp?i=1416 



-----Original Message-----
From: listbounce () securityfocus com [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] On
Behalf Of Craig Wright
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 8:33 AM
To: security-basics () securityfocus com 
Subject: FW: Is a career change to Computer Forensics fantasy or can it
bereality?


What planet are you from?

The comment "To testify as an expert you must be "certified" to do so by
the Court." Is just BS! The parties and the court accept the expert or
they counter with other "experts". This allows them to introduce
"opinion". Their testimony is weighted based on their credibility.

As an example... AU

EVIDENCE ACT 1995 - SECT 79


Exception: opinions based on specialised knowledge


If a person has specialised knowledge based on the person's training,
study or experience, the opinion rule does not apply to evidence of an
opinion of that person that is wholly or substantially based on that
knowledge.

And ... UK

"If matters arise in our law which concern other sciences or faculties,
we commonly apply for the aid of that science or faculty which it
concerns" Buckley v Rice Thomas (1554)

The expert witness is, thus, an exception to the exclusionary rule and
is permitted to give opinion evidence. In civil litigation this has
statutory authority in the UK:

"Where a person is called as a witness in any civil proceedings, his
opinion on any relevant matter on which he is qualified to give expert
evidence shall be admissible in evidence" Civil Evidence Act 1972, S.3
(1).

I can keep going on US, ECJ etc if you wish, but the fact is that there
is nothing to "certify" an expert. In Sub-juris cases you have to be
able to convince the justices of your merit. When in front of a Jury,
you need to convince them. At the same time the opposing council will
try to tear down your credibility. The duty of an expert is to the
court! Not to any party - even the one paying you. Truth first, loyalty
to the court. See the guidelines below.

And as for how an expert should behave...

http://www.fedcourt.gov.au/how/prac_direction.html 

Regards,

Craig






-----Original Message-----
From: listbounce () securityfocus com [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] 
On Behalf Of Paula McPherson
Sent: Friday, 8 December 2006 9:24 PM
To: gillettdavid () fhda edu; reapersoft () gmail com;
security-basics () securityfocus com 
Subject: RE: Is a career change to Computer Forensics fantasy or can it
bereality?




To testify as an expert you must be "certified" to do so by the Court.

Either through a voir dire of your Vitae (examination and
cross-examination

of one's professional expertise including review of all published works)
or

stipulation of parties, one way or the other the dude taking the stand
has

to be a hardware and software God.





Though I came from a legal background, I did not come to system security

late; I had to wait for them to upgrade the abacas.




-----Original Message-----

From: listbounce () securityfocus com [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] 
On

Behalf Of David Gillett

Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 7:41 PM

To: reapersoft () gmail com; security-basics () securityfocus com 

Subject: RE: Is a career change to Computer Forensics fantasy or can it
be

reality?




> There has always been a conflict in my mind that one who


> persues Forensics needs to first be a Security/IT type, I


> have seen where this looks to be true and where it does not,


> perhaps someone can comment on that.




  There are at least two common definitions of "Computer Forensics",

which *do* overlap.  Undoubtedly, some of the sources you've seen

are using one and some another.




1.  Investigation of Computer Security Incidents

  A lot of this is recognizing what's abnormal and figuring out how

it came about.  Obviously, someone without an IT background is going

to be ill-equipped for this.




2.  Recovering Evidence from Computer Systems

  This is all about being able to testify, as necessary, at termination

hearings, lawsuits, and even criminal trials, as to things like

standard procedures, sanitary methods, chain of custody, and the like.

Detailed IT knowledge is helpful, but is more essential to tool authors

than to tool users.  Although the evidence is stored in a digital


information system, the acts of which it provides evidence need not

involve any violation of computer security, but are more often evidence

of fraud, infidelity, or other sorts of non-computer malfeasance.




  Certifications come in both flavors, too.  My impression is that the

particular certs you've listed are attempting to certify expertise under

the first definition; under the second, courts have decided to accept

evidence retrieved by a few specific tools *when used by a vendor-

certified operator*, and so each tool has its vendor certification

program.

  (Jobs in the second category have so far mostly been with law
enforcement

and prosecutorial agencies, although I expect that at some point there
will


begin to be a market for these skills on the defendant side as well.)




  To those who use the second definition, activities under the first

definition are a subset of "Incident Response", and you may find it

easier to get into that general field and then specialize in the
particular

aspect that interests you, than to try to go directly into
specialization.




David Gillett










> -----Original Message-----

> From: listbounce () securityfocus com 


> [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] On Behalf Of


> reapersoft () gmail com 

> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 5:04 AM

> To: security-basics () securityfocus com 

> Subject: Is a career change to Computer Forensics fantasy or


> can it be reality?

>


> Hello,

>


> I am a software engineer working in the VoIP space.  I am


> looking to change my career path and get into Computer Forensics.

>


> Without any experience its going to be a tough road but I


> believe my troubleshooting skills and software experience can


> help.  My troubleshooting ability can be valuable on the


> investigation side of things, I generally will "chew" on a


> problem until its solved or at least until I have another way


> to debug it and gather more information.  My programming


> skills can come in handy for gathering information during an


> investigation when its a network intrusion or for malware


> analysis, at least this is my reasoning. 


>


> Some things I am doing now is reading books (File System


> Forensic Analysis, Real Digital Forensic etc...) and


> listening to relevant podcasts but that only takes one so


> far.  My other thought is to get one of the many


> certifications out there so that when I attempt to gain


> employment I am at least showing some initiative and not just


> a passing interest in the field.  Spending some of my own


> money shows a committment to my goal.

>


> There has always been a conflict in my mind that one who


> persues Forensics needs to first be a Security/IT type, I


> have seen where this looks to be true and where it does not,


> perhaps someone can comment on that.

>


> I am looking for opinions on what certifications I might


> spend my money on.  Should I go with a security cert, a pure


> forensics cert, some combination of both or neither.

>


> Some of the Forensic specific certs I have been evaluating


> are the SANS GCFA and ISFCE CCE.

>


> I have posted this to the SecurityFocus Forensics list but it


> was rejected because it was off topic.  I did however get


> some good feedback from the lists' moderator, thanks for that!

> I wish to get some more feedback from others so hopefully the


> Basics list is the place to post.

>


> In a nutshell:

>


> Can one get into the field of Computer Forensics thru self


> study and getting a certification or is it such a closed


> field that I should look elsewhere for a career change and


> not waste my time/money?

>


> Is the field primarily based on experience and not certs?

>


> Any and all opinions are welcome.

>


> Thanks in advance,

>


> MH

>


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