Security Basics mailing list archives
Re: Student-Degree valuable or not?
From: JGrimshaw () ASAP com
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:25:03 -0500
30k is in the Chicagoland area. That is where I am located. It is the number my friend is looking for, perhaps he is lowballing himself? I'll use my friend as an example; he's 22, out of school. He went to (oh heck I don't know, Northern IL , or Southern) and went into computer engineering, and received his four-year degree. There is literally nothing out there in the job market that he is capable of doing, and this is not a shot at him or his abilities. Look for yourself at the lists of demands for jobs; not only do you have to program, you need so many years of experience. You need to program in the latest .NET, which wasn't taught in school. He needs to know the entire Visual Studio suite. Sure, he can work his way around visual basic and other things, but he has no business experience. He doesn't even have shareware to show a prospective employer (which I have encouraged him to write, just so he can place it on his resume). Where does new graduate get the experience in these things, aside from piracy and further personal education ? Or additional classes at some computer training place for a few thousand more dollars that he doesn't have? These programming packages do not come cheap. He is good at Linux, as far as I am concerned, but he has not professionally administered anything other than sharing the network connection at his parents house and setting up a linux firewall on an old 386. He questions the purpose of his degree, and I really cannot blame him. His parents are pretty livid he's still living at home with a four-year degree. They assumed he'd be long gone by now. He has had interviews with consulting firms, but they don't go anywhere because he doesn't have experience. Traditionally, you get the experience somewhere first before you start consulting, unless you sell yourself really well. It has been my experience to learn things from the first "real" job you have, but even smaller companies are simply out-sourcing rather than hiring on a new graduate. Here is an example of a typical programming job posting in the Chicago area: Technical Skills Desired: Programming Languages: EJB/J2EE (WebSphere, WebLogic), Java, C++, .NET, Visual Basic, COM, ASP, HTML, XML, CORBA. Development Tools: UML, Rational Rose, Rational ClearCase Database Skills: SQL, Oracle, SQL Server, DB2 Operating Systems: Unix (Solaris, AIX), Windows 2000/NT Applications: Siebel, Tibco, Vitria, Portal, DSET, Mantiss, Daleen, Amdocs, Cygent, Clarify, Metasolv, PeopleSoft, Vertex The best he can do on most of these is look them up on Google. I haven't heard of Vitria, DSET, Mantiss (but it sounds cool!), Amdocs, Cygnet, or Vertex. Maybe I'm behind, but I am not a programmer. As for me, I am a CCIE. I worked up from A+ to MCP to MCSE to CCNA, CCNP and finally CCIE. And you know what? Prospective employers would tell me "Oh, you don't have 8 years of Security Design?" and "Oh, you haven't implemented VoIP to thousands of users in an enterprise environment?" Better still, being a CCIE somehow translates that you must know EVERYTHING. "You have configured a checkpoint firewall, right?" "How good are you at UNIX?" "So, you don't have experience with migrating from Banyan Vines?" Here's a posting for a CCIE in my area: One of Chicago's largest healthcare institutions is seeking a Senior Level Cisco Expert. Must have strong Cisco Router experience up to the 7500 and 12,000 GSR series. Must have 8+ in design and 3rd tier troubleshooting in a complex, multi-platform enviroment. Network monitoring backround required and routing protocol knowledge a must (BGP, OSPF, RIP), You will be the lead for this cutting edge team of Network Engineers and will be doing industry research and implementation of new technology, as well as acting as the last line of defense for high level problem resolution. Any certifications a plus. CCIE is strongly recommended. The IOS is the essentially the same look and feel on a 1600 router as it is on a 12,000 GSR series. The CLI doesn't change, but there sure are a lot of extra options on the 12,000 GSR. Now, on ebay, a 1600 might go for $700. A 12,000 GSR goes for perhaps six digits when loaded. With this in mind, I have not had the opportunity to even telnet into a 12,000 GSR. The issue here is that HR doesn't know that. HR has never used a router. Frequently, HR doesn't know what a router even is. But I am already out of the running when I say that no, actually, I haven't touched a 12,000 GSR series router. This particular job posting has been up for at least a month; I am thinking that out of the small pool of CCIEs that there are, the few in the Chicago area that have touched a 12,000 GSR series is likely already employed and working with one. Not many companies need a $100,000 router. All of this is besides the point, so allow me to get back on track. The market is in a difficult stage right now, being entry level doesn't help, being recognized as an industry expert seems to not help as much, and at the same time, everything I do, and everything that my programmer friend can do... can all be done outside the confines of the company, be it a local outsourcer (say, outsourcing the helpdesk to the call center in Alphretta, Georiga at IBM), or a remote outsourcer (such as GECIS or Wipro or Satyam or Tata). I'll reiterate my original statement: Learn something and do it well, and try to learn everything else. Some people try to argue that a college degree is better than an industry certification (or multiple certifications), and that is not what I am trying to address. I stated the economy is bad, and the jobs that have gone overseas are not likely to return. Wherever you go, and whatever you do--do it well, and make sure it's not the only thing you know how to do. I would have a hard time believing that 30K would be too much to ask for a position like that anywhere in the US. Maybe the person was referring to a position in another country or possibly a small town in North Dakota or something. My first job straight out of college as an EE 20 years ago landed me a job at around 23K and that was a fairly low number at the time. And this is in Florida where the COL is pretty low. ~Kevin DavisĀ³ What possibly could go wrong? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Huntley" <benh () steffian com> To: "Security-Basics" <security-basics () securityfocus com> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 12:49 PM Subject: RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? keep in mind that no one can ever take the degree away from you. also, some of the salary numbers being tossed around this thread may apply regionally. for example, one of the first messages made reference to $30K being too much to ask for. if you live/work in the northeast (e.g. Boston, NYC) this number isn't enough for you to survive on, therefore, the pay scale is much higher (as well as the cost of living). as a developer, i can't really speak for those in the security administration field, however, most entry-level jobs for software companies that are hiring [programmers] locally (and yep, some are) start off in the 40-50 range and move up from there. -b --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current thread:
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not?, (continued)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? vam (Sep 29)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? DANIEL SIMPSON (Sep 29)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? Daszczyszak, Roman L. SPC (1AD 501 MI BN ACE IMO) (Sep 29)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? Brian G. (Sep 29)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? Meritt James (Sep 29)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? Brian G. (Sep 29)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? Meidinger Chris (Sep 29)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? DeGennaro, Gregory (Sep 29)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? Depp, Dennis M. (Sep 29)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? Ben Huntley (Sep 29)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? ~Kevin DavisĀ³ (Sep 30)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? JGrimshaw (Sep 30)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? ~Kevin DavisĀ³ (Sep 30)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? Randy Golly (Sep 29)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? Seyberth Allan R Contr AFRL/VSIO (Sep 29)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? Brian Graybeal (Sep 30)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? DANIEL SIMPSON (Sep 30)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? Chris Berry (Sep 30)