WebApp Sec mailing list archives
RE: Finally - Curphey award 2004 to SPI Dynamics
From: "Sebastien Deleersnyder" <sdl () ascure com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:38:47 +0200
Hi, A bit late, but I am going through a pile of mail myself, and kicking in an open door: The problem with this kind of application level firewalls is that it can protect you agains most common input validation mistakes, but when it comes to design mistakes they will fail and only provide a false sense of security (like the 'old' firewall story). We should not fall in this trap a 2nd time: A have an (Application Level) Firewall thus I should feel safe? An application level firewall can provide defense in depth, but should not replace proper security design/implementation throughout the whole SDLC. Kind regards, Sebastien -----Original Message----- From: Madsen, Villy [mailto:Villy.Madsen () atcoitek com] Sent: dinsdag 29 juni 2004 16:19 To: Mads Rasmussen; Mark Curphey Cc: webappsec () securityfocus com; Jeff Williams Subject: RE: Finally - Curphey award 2004 to SPI Dynamics While I do not advocate that Developers be allowed to get lazy about security, I also feel that providing a standard tool that they can use to filter input is a bad thing. Way back a couple of decades ago, I was involved in a Telco project to rewrite an application used by Long Distance Telephone operators to manage "Time and Charges" calls. The application was finally shut down in 2000. One of the "breakthroughs" that we pioneered was the heavy use of what was we called Table Driven IO. All data input or output from the system was defined by a set of mapping tables, that defined what the data could look like, how long it was, and where it was mapped to in the application data schema. The "mapping" applications were general purpose, checked for proper type - performing whatever data conversions where necessary, guarded against overflows etc etc. Sounds very similar to me. I thought it was a great idea then, and I still do... One application to vet (the mapping routine), and a bunch of tables to validate. Easier than validating all of the code snippets that are "accepting Input" from the external world.... Villy Villy Madsen ISP GSEC Information Security ATCO I-Tek Bus: (780) 420-5093 Cell: (780) 975-0110 Fax: (780) 420-3916 Mailto:Villy.Madsen () atcoitek com The information transmitted is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and any copies. -----Original Message----- From: Mads Rasmussen [mailto:mads () opencs com br] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:47 AM To: Mark Curphey Cc: webappsec () securityfocus com; Jeff Williams Subject: Re: Finally - Curphey award 2004 to SPI Dynamics Mark Curphey wrote:
Here I am, depressed at the prospect of filling in mountains of expense claims from weeks of traveling and approving mundane mails to webappsec about XSS after XSS and along comes a shining light. At last
an "application security" company that gets it ! Hats of to the folks at SPI and the Curphey Award for 2004 for leading the industry down the right path ! http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040628/clm006_1.html
Here is another link http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1617901,00.asp I don't know about you guys but I have a bad feeling about this. I am not sure this is the right path. The article quotes Caleb Sima, founder and chief technology officer of SPI Dynamics saying "It doesn't require developers to learn about security," - "You really just need to validate input to eliminate most application vulnerabilities." Shouldn't you at least have a feeling for where the developers makes their mistakes to be able to insert the right piece of secure code? By all means it looks like a cool product, but how much can we trust it? One of its features is, qoute "Input Validation objects will check incoming data on web forms to validate user-supplied input against a set of rules and prevent parameter manipulation exploits, such as SQL Injection attacks." Can we trust these "set of rules". If they opened their technology, the OWASP team could contribute rules to such a database and then we just might get somewhere by having a list of f.ex regular expressions for using the validator classes in .Net or input validation in general but that would probably not happen. I am concerned that products like this just leads to lazy developers. Jeff what do you think about this? You wanted to start an input validation project based on filters, a database like described above would be quite handy :o) Just my two bits -- Mads Rasmussen, M.Sc. Open Communications Security www.opencs.com.br +55 11 3345 2525
Current thread:
- RE: Finally - Curphey award 2004 to SPI Dynamics Sebastien Deleersnyder (Aug 25)
- <Possible follow-ups>
- RE: Finally - Curphey award 2004 to SPI Dynamics Sebastien Deleersnyder (Aug 25)
- Re: App Firewalls and Secure Libraries Mark Curphey (Aug 25)
- Re: App Firewalls and Secure Libraries Ivan Ristic (Aug 31)
- Re: App Firewalls and Secure Libraries Mark Curphey (Aug 25)