Cryptome's John Young describes visit by two FBI agents

[Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>]

---

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:58:23 -0800
To: cypherpunks
From: John Young <jya () pipeline com>
Subject: Re: Gestapo harasses John Young, appeals to patriotism, told to
    fuck off

SA Renner did most of the talking and carried a
manila folder with a file name on it beginning with
"SP,"  I think. Couldn't see the remainder. He didn't 
open it during the session and it may have been
a prop.

They showed up without warning, no call ahead, got
past our Doberman doorman (we're on the 6th floor)
who usually calls us about visitors but didn't this time, 
and hasn't said a peep since the visit.

(In contrast, when I got subpoenas for the Bell grand 
jury and trial, the doorman called up about the Treasury 
agents and I met them in the street level lobby.)

Renner showed ID, asked to come in and talk. They
were here about half an hour.

I tried to get them to sit together but they carefully
bracketed me.

They asked who works with me on Cryptome, who
funds it. Me and me alone, I said.

The FBI agents asked about nobody except me. Renner
asked for ID and I showed him Duncan's, or maybe it was 
Declan's.

I sent an account to cpunks right after the visit but LNE
never processed it, nor three more later. Hence this
algebra late comer.

---

From: Tim May
Subject: Re: Gestapo harasses John Young, appeals to patriotism, told to
  fuck off
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:01:00 -0800
To: cypherpunks

On Nov 8, 2003, at 11:06 AM, Anonymous wrote:

> > Cryptome received a visit today from FBI Special Agents Todd Renner 
> > and Christopher
> > Kelly from the FBI Counterterrorism Office in New York, 26 Federal 
> > Plaza, telephone
> > 212) 384-1000. Both agents presented official ID and business cards.
>
> Good stuff. Pigs getting concerned about cryptome means they are 
> scared.

I don't understand how this "Anonymous" can title a post with the 
phrase "told to fuck off" when John Young's account clearly said that 
he allowed the Feebs to enter his area and even had them sitting on 
either side of him.

I cannot claim to know what I would do, or will do, if Feds ever visit 
my home, but I hope I will have the presence of mind to tell them to:

a) get off my property

b) or to arrest me

In either case, talking to them will not help. The way the 
Reichssecuritat is getting convictions these days is to charge sheeple 
with "lying to Federal agents."

Nothing in the Constitution allows compelled speech, except under 
limited (and I think unconstitutional) cases involving grand juries 
ordering a person to speak. (Or where use or blanket immunity has been 
granted, again, probably an unconstitutional measure, as it is 
compelling potentially self-incriminating evidence which may very well 
be used in either another case or be twisted to provide a basis for 
another case.)

I hope I will have the self-presence to say "You are trespassing. Get 
off my property, right now!"

Cooperating with cops snooping around looking for either thoughtcrime 
or "terrorist aid and support" is a lose, a big lose.

Speculating wildly, the real target may be John Young himself. And 
nearly anything he said to these narcs may be construed, by them and by 
their malleable DAs, as "lying to a Federal investigator."

People should not talk to the Feds. If the Feds come calling, refer 
them to one's lawyer. For those who don't have a lawyer on retainer, 
tell them that you need to consult with a lawyer first. Whether you do 
or you don't is beside the point. The point is to not talk to them.

"Lying to a Federal investigator" is how they probably hope to get 
Cryptome shut down and John's kind of dissent quelled.


--Tim May

---

From: Freematt357 () aol com
Message-ID: <145.1c8a3431.2ce7d38f () aol com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:07:59 EST
To: jya () pipeline com
Cc: cypherpunks

In a message dated 11/10/2003 3:02:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jya () pipeline com writes:

> They showed up without warning, no call ahead, got
> past our Doberman doorman (we're on the 6th floor)
> who usually calls us about visitors but didn't this time, 
> and hasn't said a peep since the visit.

Why open the door to them? I have a few friends who as a matter of principle 
do not open their doors to people they do not know. Letting a Fedgoon in is 
akin to inviting a vampire into your house.

Regards,  Matt-

---

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:05:05 -0800
To: cypherpunks
From: John Young <jya () pipeline com>
Old-Subject: Re: Gestapo harasses John Young, appeals to patriotism,
  told to  fuck off

Matt wrote:

> Why open the door to them? I have a few friends who as a matter of principle 
> do not open their doors to people they do not know. Letting a Fedgoon in is 
> akin to inviting a vampire into your house.

I was expecting someone else at about the same time. True, I could
have refused entry after the agent showed his ID. However, it
seemed too good an opportunity to pass up: it is pretty common
for Cryptome to get unexpected contributions. We try to remain
open lines of communication to unknown sources, if not a goodly
amount of info would never come out way.

For all I knew, and now know, the Special Agents were frauds,
of which Cryptome gets a taste regularly, perhaps more than
we know. As discussed here, spoofing is trivial to do.

Toward the end of the visit I asked SA Kelly to see his ID up close
and he displayed a wallet with a brass badge on the left and a
two-leaf ID on the right: flip left, then flip up. Was it real?

The two-leaf ID looked like the version SA Renner showed at
the door.

Trim haircuts and dark suits, healthy-looking young Caucasians,
no facial hair, shined shoes, clean teeth, no noticeable mouth 
or body odor, no obvious weapon bulges, polite, actually not
polite all the time: there were a few instances when mild
friction occurred, low-key warnings sent my way about
inadvertent threats to the nation with too much information
like that on Cryptome.

SA Renner was cooler than Kelly during questioning -- Kelly 
slightly bristled when I made a comment about free flowing 
information making the US stronger, the agent saying, yes, 
but information can be misused. He bristled a lot more when
I said I would publish their names, "make them famous." At
the word "famous" Kelly said, smiling "really, I haven't had 
that before."

Renner was quieter on naming names, knowing that there
was a CNN story out about him. But he too mildly protested
with the "hazard to the family" shtick.

Kelly said, "you know we can be found by knowing our
names, get shot for what we do." That reminded me of
Jeff Gordon, but I didn't snort.

Kelly leaned forward in his wing-back chair, slightly aggressive, 
whereas Renner sat upright at a table, case file in front, posing 
most of the questions to me.

Now, if I had refused the agents entry could I be telling this
dinky inside story? Perhaps better will be the second visit, or 
door-busting and marching downstairs in handcuffs, or 
dark-van-snatch on the street, or my family and customers
and friends questioned and warned, my assets seized
and listed in the New York Times, gosh, what notoriety
being a questionable patriot can lead to -- maybe right
up there at the foot soles of the Special Agents, real or 
fraudulent.

Confirming the allegation about idiot witnesses, I am
sure I would not recognize either agent if I saw them
again. The IDs yes, and the questions, but not the
bland biometrics.
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