FC: Hilary Rosen loses Oxford digital-music debate by 3-1 margin

[Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>]

[I'd be happy to forward a response from the RIAA, per my usual policy. 
--Declan]

---

From: "James Lucier" <vze29z9k () verizon net>
To: <declan () well com>
Subject: Hilary Rosen voted down more than 3 to 1 at Oxford Union
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 17:30:01 -0500

Hi Declan:

I thought I would submit this to your attention.  As a former Chairman and 
Convenor of the World Universities Debating Championship, a international 
parliamentary debate tourney which, at least in my day, Oxford, the 
University of Sydney, and the University of Glasgow routinely won in 
rotation, I have to say these things are about style and presentation than 
substance most of the time.  Thus the Scots (with kilts and dirks in their 
stockings) and the Australians (outrageous accents and beers in hand) 
tended to have unfair advantages.  In the case of Oxford, one has to ask 
whether they will refuse to fight for king and country next.  I doubt this 
particular debate settles the issue, but it must have been fun for all 
concerned.

Jim Lucier


<http://tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk/~nick/UnionDebate/>http://tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk/~nick/UnionDebate/




Oxford Union Debate - This House believes that "the free music mentality is 
a threat to the future of music."

This was a debate held at the <http://www.oxford-union.org/>Oxford Union on 
Thursday 24th October. For the speakers, see the 
<http://www.oxford-union.org/mod.php?mod=calendar&op=show_event&event_id=10>debate 
page.

Final vote was:
Ayes - 72
Noes - 256

----------
Under the watchful eye of Dave Green from <http://www.ntk.net/>NTK, several 
of us met up in the Lamb & Flag before the debate, and trooped in together. 
Impressively, we had about as many members as non, so getting everyone in 
wasn't nearly as tough as we'd expected it to be. Since we arrived about 
8pm, we sat through a rather confusing debate, where it seemed that neither 
the (very quiet) chair or the speakers quite knew which side they were 
arguing for... Then, about 8:40 the speakers for the main debate wandered in.

The proposition had Nick Pacheco (Christchurch College), Hilary Rosen 
(RIAA), Chris Wright (Chrysalis) and Jay Berman (IFPI). The opposition had 
Will Harris (Keble College), Nick King (Nielsen Entertainment), Doug D'Arcy 
(Chrysalis) and Ronnie Gurr (various). (A few union members also spoke for 
both sides during the floor debate.)

I won't endeavour to recount the entire debate, just some of my thoughts on 
it and what I thought were some of the highlights. The Union made a video 
recording of the entire thing, which may or may not eventually get put 
online (you could try asking the <mailto:david.watson () bnc ox ac uk>Union 
President, David Watson about it, I suspect the more requests they get the 
more like it is to get online). <http://www.davegreen.co.uk/>Dave Green 
also made a tape recording of the event, that will probably make it online 
soonish, provided the quality is good enough.

----------
So, some of the more memorable bits included:
   * Hilary Rosen saying "Actually, no copy protected CDs have been 
released in the US" 
(<http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/10/20/2337202&mode=thread&tid=141> 
really? <http://www.fatchucks.com/z3.cd.html>really?)
   * Hilary Rosen asks "Put up your hand if you download and burn music" 
(most hands go up). She then asks "Keep you hand up if you buy more music 
because of it" (many stay up). She gets worried and immediately asks some 
different and confusing set of people to put their hands up, causing 
everyone to look miffed, and everyone putting their hand down)
   * Hilary Rosen nodding like a pigeon for most of the time
   * Every opposition speaker getting at least one impromptu applause 
during their speeches, only one proposition speaker getting one (and that 
was for taking the piss out of a union hack)
   * The leader of the opposition appearing to have read 
<http://uk.eurorights.org/issues/cd/bad/>http://uk.eurorights.org/issues/cd/bad/ 
based on many of his comments (i.e. he said many of the things that were on 
the leaflets we had to hand out)
   * One of the proposition reading out several verses of "Thank you for 
the music" by Abba. We got the point after the first verse, but we then 
stated to wonder if he had permission from the rights holder, or was he 
simply claiming "fair use"?
   * The proposition trying to defend the vast profits they make on many 
CDs sales, and trying to make themselves look philanthropic about many of 
the artists they take on
   * The proposition keep claiming "you can't have/make music without the 
music industry" and then not letting anyone speak to point out the 
inaccuracy of this
   * Everyone (yup, both sides, but more so the opposition) laying into 
the likes of Pop Stars, Pop Idols etc
   * The quality of the examples/figures etc given by both sides. The 
proposition kept pulling out these massive numbers on falling sales, the 
opposition pointed out which areas were falling and which were growing 
(quite insightful, and hardly surprising).
   * One of the opposition speakers telling us about his recent music 
shopping experiences (including how he'd been in HMV buying a couple of 
CDs, and the people in front of him in the queue who were buying several 
CDs were also talking about how to download various P2P clients).
   * One of the proposition giving figures on the Linkin Park album 
(sales, downloads etc), the leader of the opposition saying he'd personally 
downloaded it and then gone out and bought it, asking for the figures of 
how many people who'd downloaded it had bought it, and being told "I have 
no figures, and nor do you" by the proposition, nicely ignoring the fact 
that they both then had a figure showing that 100% of people surveyed there 
who'd downloaded had also bought...
   * Jay Berman probably being the best proposition speaker, and coming 
out with the insightful "Each generation has had their own music. For your 
generation it's filesharing. And I think thats a pretty terrible thing"
   * Ronnie Gurr being good once he'd warmed up (Martin has more on him on 
<http://www.mba-experience.com/>his page)
   * The votes (a massive landslide for the opposition, with 72 Ayes to 
256 Noes)
   * Hilary Rosen almost voting against the motion (you vote by walking 
out the correct door, and she wasn't paying any attention)
   * 
<http://alumni.ox.compsoc.net/~agk/photos/CDR/full/C0889.jpg>Alastair's 
photo (<http://alumni.ox.compsoc.net/~agk/photos/CDR/>the others) of Hilary 
Rosen talking to someone wearing a 
<http://www.geekstyle.co.uk/ntkmart.cgi#Corrupt>Corrupt Audio T-Shirt, and 
appearing to be reading it.
   * Us clapping and cheering Hilary Rosen and friends as they left, and 
them appearing not to get the sarcasm (this being a scant 20 minutes after 
we were giving <http://uk.eurorights.org/issues/cd/supp/>fliers to everyone 
leaving the debate
   * Discovering that one of our number was a Dave Green on TV fan, while 
queueing up for Kebabs.
Oh, and a few other things that currently escape me. I might write them 
here later...

----------



Links of some possible relevance

   * <http://www.oxford-union.org/>The Oxford Union
   * 
<http://www.oxford-union.org/mod.php?mod=calendar&op=show_event&event_id=10>Union 
page on the debate
   * <http://www.mba-experience.com/>Martin Llloyd's page on the debate
   * <http://alumni.ox.compsoc.net/~agk/photos/CDR/>Alastair's photos from 
the debate

----------
Last modified: Sunday, 27-Oct-2002 00:53:43 BST
Abuse / comments / thoughts to 
<mailto:nick () tirian magd ox ac uk>nick () tirian magd ox ac uk




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