FC: More on Echelon, intercepts, and a quick history lesson

[Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>]

********

From: jonathan.winkler () yale edu
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:31:09 -0500
To: <declan () well com>
Subject: Re: FC: Echelon exists and is not that bad, European Parliament 
cmte says

Declan,

<snip>
In a 250KB draft report, the committee said that Echelon -- operated
by English-speaking countries including the United States, Canada
and
Great Britain -- is designed for intelligence purposes but that no
"substantiated" evidence exists that it has been used to spy on
European firms on behalf of American competitors.
<snip>

David Kahn, author of Codebreakers, and I spoke last December at a
conference at Yale about this question of signals intelligence for
corporate espionage.  I had given a paper on allegations by US firms in
the 1915-1921 period that the British were using their control of
submarine telegraph cables to do the same thing.  With much less traffic
relative to now, allegations and evidence was somewhat easier to come
by.

What David and I agreed upon, however, was that it would seem to be all
but impossible for a US (or UK, in the earlier case) government agency
to come up with a way to distribute the corporate intelligence equitably
to the beneficiary companies.  If, for example, the US learned a French
firm were going to bid low on an important contract, how on earth would
it decide which US firm to provide the information to without the others
spilling the beans?

In the earlier case, intelligence historians are going to turn their
attention to the British Board of Trade records to see what was going
on. What sort of circumstantial evidence are the Europeans relying upon
to bolster their case, have they any explanation for how difficult it
would be to pass on such information, and how does the US refute it
(beyond the usual 'no comment)?

Regards,

Jonathan Winkler
PhD Candidate, Yale University
Smithsonian Fellow, National Museum of American History

**********

My response:

I respectfully disagree with Jonathan's position, at least as I understand 
it. Much has changed since the early 1900s, and the executive branch now is 
entirely capable of picking corporate favorites in the marketplace.

Not only is this not unprecedented; it's common. Just look at the 
well-heeled Democratic-donating execs who bought their way on board Ron 
Brown's Commerce department excursions. Bush II is hardly any different. 
Just look at the recent flap over Republican-donating businessmen being 
feted at the White House and Naval Observatory 
(http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/politics/917077).

I admit that the NSA has a far greater interest in keeping its sources 
secret than the White House does in rewarding donors. And I have not seen 
reliable evidence showing Echelon intercepts are used in this manner. But 
saying that it is "impossible" for the executive branch to dole out 
information "equitably" seems to me misses the point: Modern politics is 
all about favorites -- and, as both major parties say, donor maintenance -- 
not equitability.

-Declan

**********

Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:36:02 -0400
From: "James Lewis" <JALewis () CSIS ORG>
To: <declan () well com>
Subject: Re: FC: Echelon exists and is not that bad, European
        Parliament cmte says

Hi:

people might want to look at some New Zealand Government sites that discuss 
the issue NZ has been the most open of the governments involved (see the 
second link below).  We're also putting an analysis on our website in the 
next day or two.

http://www.dpmc.govt.nz/dess/securingoursafety/index.html

http://www.dpmc.govt.nz/dess/securingoursafety/gcsb.html

http://www.dpmc.govt.nz/dess/securingoursafety/sons2000.pdf

**********

Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:12:50 -0700
From: Bruce Gowens <bgowens () home com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405  (Win98; U)
To: declan () well com
Subject: Re: FC: Echelon exists and is not that bad, European Parliament cmte
 says
References: <20010524121640.A10997 () cluebot com>

        And just before I read this, I read a SlashDot item about
the NSA tapping fibre cables.  Story at:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2764372,00.html

**********

Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:26:03 -0700
From: lizard <lizard () mrlizard com>
To: declan () well com
CC: politech () politechbot com
Subject: Re: FC: Echelon exists and is not that bad, European Parliament cmte
 says

Declan McCullagh wrote:
>    In a 250KB draft report, the committee said that Echelon -- operated
>    by English-speaking countries including the United States, Canada and
>    Great Britain -- is designed for intelligence purposes but that no
>    "substantiated" evidence exists that it has been used to spy on
>    European firms on behalf of American competitors.
>
Well, THAT'S a relief! I'm sure most people's first thought, when they
heard of the system, was "Gosh! I sure hope they only use this to track
my email to my friends, and not to conduct industrial espionage!"

**********




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