FC: BBB responds to politech subscriber on "copyright" linking claim

[Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>]

**********
In response to:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-01814.html

Excerpt from BBB response:
 "Hyperlinking to BBB sites by businesses that are not members of the CBBB 
or BBB is not permitted."
**********

From: STOBrien () wajones org
Received: from smtp.wajones.org (fwuser () smtp wajones org [216.12.15.72])
          by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP
          id IAA27262 for <declan () well com>; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:45:50 -0800 (PST)
To: declan () well com, BCorr () NEAction org
Subject: BBB Responds
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:45:48 -0500

Thanks Brian, I am forwarding this to Declan McCullagh, of PoliTech, from 
whence my first post about this originated.

Sean
----- Forwarded by Sean T. O'Brien/staff/wajones on 03/16/2001 11:42 AM
-----


Brian Corr <BCorr () NEAction org>
03/16/2001 11:25 AM
Please respond to BCorr


        To:     riders () topica com, orgwebmasters () mail-list com
        cc:
        Subject:        RE: [Riders] FC: Better Business Bureau tries to 
ban links to its website

Here's what I got from the BBB. A bit more reasonable than it sounded from
the BizMove press release....

Thanks,
Brian

>From: "Cherico, Holly" <hcherico () cbbb bbb org>
>To: "'BCorr () NEAction org'" <BCorr () NEAction org>
>Cc: "Zialcita, Beth" <bzialcita () cbbb bbb org>
>Subject: CBBB Hyperlinking Policy
>Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:59:50 -0500
>X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
>
>To:  Brian Corr, Director, Technical Support and Training, Northeast
Action
>30 Germania St.
>Boston, MA  02130-2315
>617.541.0500
>617.541.0533 fax
>www.neaction.org
>
>Dear Brian:  Beth Zialcita forwarded your email and phone message to me
for
>response.  Yes, the CBBB did contact BizMove to request removal of
>hyperlinks to the BBB site and to request they remove copyrighted BBB
>content, which they had framed within  <<CBBB Hyperlink Statement.doc>>
>their web site.  However, BizMove's communications to the news media on
this
>issue contained inaccurate information, and did not accurately reflect
what
>we had requested.  Our hyperlink policy and underlying reasoning is
detailed
>in the attached statement, which I've also reprinted below.  Give me a
call
>if I can provide additional information.  Thanks for contacting the CBBB
for
>our side of the story.
>
>Holly Cherico
>VP-Communications
>Council of Better Business Bureaus
>phone: 703.247.9311
>email: hcherico () cbbb bbb org
>
>Statement by the Council of Better Business Bureaus (CBBB) on BBB
>Hyperlinking Policy
>
>The press release recently issued by a web site business concerning the
>CBBB's hyperlinking policy conveys false information.
>
>*       The CBBB permits and encourage hyperlinks to its web sites
>(www.bbb.org
>         and www.bbbonline.org) from entities that are information
sources or
>public service-oriented, such as news media organizations, government
>agencies and search engines. Such sites may hyperlink to BBB web sites
>without prior approval. In addition, commonly known consumer and/or
business
>information sources (like Chambers of Commerce or the AARP), online
>directory distributors, Internet portals and legitimate educational
>institutions and trade associations may also link to BBB sites with
advance
>approval.
>
>*       For-profit web sites that market or sell products require careful
>evaluation before the CBBB can permit their use of the BBB name in a
>hyperlink or by any other means.  The BBB is a unique organization, with
a
>business ethics focus.  Through a 90-year reputation for credibility and
>impartiality, consumers have come to know the BBB and trust its role in
>upholding fairness in the marketplace.  When consumers see the BBB name
on a
>business web site, they typically assume that the business has met BBB
>standards or is somehow approved by the BBB.  This was the case with the
web
>site at issue, which sports numerous BBB hyperlinks and references in
close
>proximity to its advertised products, and also frames BBB web site
content
>on its site.  A consumer, who was confused as to the web site's BBB
>membership, contacted the CBBB.
>
>*       The BBB system has a use of name and logo policy for businesses
in
>the traditional and online marketplaces; there was a clear need to
clarify
>this policy with regard to use of the BBB name or trustmarks in
hyperlinks.
>Since 1995, when the first BBB central site was launched, businesses have
>requested hyperlink permission, and consumers have asked for
clarification
>regarding BBB hyperlinks and references that appear on various sites.
>
>                 CBBB policy permits businesses that have committed to
abide
>by BBB membership standards to hyperlink to information sections of the
CBBB
>or BBB web sites under certain parameters.   That's because the BBB knows
>that such businesses have a satisfactory report, will promptly respond to
>customer disputes, and have committed to uphold truthful advertising and
>other business standards.
>
>                 Hyperlinking to BBB sites by businesses that are not
members
>of the CBBB or BBB is not permitted.   Consumers are not well served when
a
>web site creates confusion regarding its affiliation with the BBB through
>inappropriate use of our name (the hyperlinks in question do use the BBB
>name).
>
>*       When advised by an Internet user or BBB staff person that a
>non-member is using the BBB name on its site, the CBBB or relevant BBB
>contacts the business.   Most businesses remove the BBB hyperlinks, when
>requested.  Upstanding businesses do not want to mislead consumers, and
do
>not seek to trade unfairly on the BBB name or credibility to sell their
>products.
>
>*       The CBBB is not willing to compromise the long-term interests of
the
>online marketplace for the sake of increasing traffic to BBB web sites.
The
>CBBB agrees that the Internet is meant to be consumer-friendly; supports
>hyperlinks as a valuable tool for Internet users, when not misleading in
>nature; and operates self-regulation programs to foster a safe,
successful
>online marketplace.  One of the first consumer service organizations to
>develop a web site, the CBBB has continued to expand the volume of BBB
>information and services available through the Internet.  It doesn't
serve
>the long-term interests of the online marketplace, however, to have
>fraudulent advertisers, scam artists, or less-than-ethical businesses
>trading on the BBB's credibility to sell products online.  The BBB system
>will continue to protect the value of the BBB name in the traditional and
>online marketplaces.
>
>On the issue of copyrighted materials, it is common courtesy and good
>business practice to request permission from a copyright owner before
>reproducing content from that owner's web site.  To do otherwise may
amount
>to a copyright violation, depending on the circumstances.  The owner of
the
>site in question did not request nor receive permission of the CBBB to
place
>BBB site content within the confines of his site.  Depending on the point
of
>entry to the site in question, visitors can find content from the BBB
site
>(actual pages from the BBB web site, including the online complaint form,
>directory of BBBs, and consumer and business educational materials)
framed
>within that site, with a URL related to the business owner's site.  This
is
>misleading and can lead to confusion on the part of the web site visitor
as
>to who generated, owns and is responsible for that content, and
assumption
>that display of the BBB pages and content is affiliated with or approved
by
>the BBB.
>
>#  #  #
At 07:26 AM 3/16/01 -0800, stobrien () wajones org wrote:
>I cannot believe nobody has responded to this, so here goes:
>
>Ellery's concern reflects some of the sentiments expressed in a recent
>news item in PC Magazine. Basically, that Webmasters should not be proud
>of large numbers of hits/visitors, especially if it crashes a site.
>However, I believe this commentary was relevant to ecommerce sites, not
to
>information sites like most of us are involved with. Lots of visitors
>clogging up an ecommerce site and not buying things makes the experience
>less enjoyable to the buyers on the site.
>
>In the case of an information site the more visitors the better (I am not
>going to get into the technical details of the accuracy of statistics,
>that is a rant for another day). If you are taking the time and spending
>the money to create a site that you think provides good and worthwhile
>information to the Web public, then it is incumbent upon you to make that
>information available to the largest possible audience. The cost of an
>industrial strength web hosting solution can be as little as $20/month.
>Everyone with a web site needs to think about their PR strategy. If you
>know you are going to be on the news or in a major publication, plan for
>that, even if it costs you some money, the ill-will generated by a slow
or
>crashing site will not serve your organization's mission  well, and the
>good will and information distribution function of lots of visitors to a
>well-designed, fast, and robust site and hosting solution is worth every
>penny for the education provided the web public about your mission.
>
>The Better Business Bureau's concern was not about crashing their site,
>but that linking to their site exists violates their copyright. This is a
>concept I can hardly understand. For example, is it wrong for me to
>verbally tell someone I just read a really great book and tell them the
>title of the book? That title has a copyright and is someone else's
>intellectual property. Suppose I read something on the BBB Web site,
which
>I can no longer find because, according to their reasoning, it should not
>be linked to from search engines, that a certain company has a good/bad
>reputation. Can I share that information, if not, can I tell people the
>URL for the BBB orally?
>
>The BBB's second concern was that links to them imply some sort of a
>relationship between the linker and the linkee. (What Internet rock have
>their lawyers been hiding under to have this idea? This has never been
the
>case on the Web.) I understand the idea of it being polite to ask if you
>can link to other sites, but I also find it absurd. We are often asked
>about links to our site, we say yes even if it is a group we do not agree
>with because 1) we cannot stop them, 2) we want people to come to the
>site, even if they arrive from a site that is dedicated to the opposite
>position, maybe we can convince them that we are right, and 3) we do not
>want to spend our precious Web development time chasing down permission
>from others to link to their site. This could take a lot of time, we have
>links to several hundred organizations on our Web site.
>
>In the specific case of the BBB the course of action they should have
>taken/should pursue is to ask people to include in the text around their
>link that a link to the BBB does not imply a relationship between the two
>sites and that the information on the BBB site is copyrighted by the BBB
>and users should check with the BBB regarding appropriate use. This is
>cumbersome, but allows people to find the BBB and does not generate ill
>will from 9700 links to www.bbb.org (according to Google--this does not
>mean 9700 sites, but 9700 links to www.bbb.org on the part of the web
>Google has indexed). Related to this, it is wise for webmasters to
include
>text somewhere on their site along the lines of: "XYZ Organization
>provides hyperlinks to many other web sites operated by a
>other organizations. Links to other sites are merely for information and
>in no way imply endorsement or control of the content of the sites linked
>to. Our privacy policies do not apply to these linked sites."
>
>I hope this perspective helps. I welcome further debate.
>
>Sean
>
>
>
>
>
>Ellery July <ejuly () nwaf org>
>03/15/2001 09:45 AM
>Please respond to ejuly
>
>
>         To:     riders () topica com, orgwebmasters () mail-list com
>         cc:
>         Subject:        RE: [Riders] FC: Better Business Bureau tries to
> ban links to its website
>
>I understand the BBB concerns. Having links to your site puts a lot of
>pressure on your system.
>
>I consulted with a non-profit organization which have had their web
>servers
>crash because a local news program gave out their web address.  It became
>like a DoS attack and people complained to them when they could not
access
>the site. They went from about 6500 hits a month to 11,300 hits the hour
>before the web server crashed. Little did anyone know that they were
>hosting
>the site on a 256k DSL line. They also temporarily lost the ability to
get
>and send email.
>
>The organization did move its web site to a hosting service and that
>increased their costs.
>
>Having also worked with people at First Call for Help and talked with
>people
>at crisis lines they will tell you that if a story is done on TV or radio
>and their number is given out they get a rush of calls in a short people
>of
>time. If they are not prepared people may not be served well.
>
>We have never denied anyone from creating a link to our site but we do
let
>them know that we host our own web site give them our specs.
>
>Whenever I create a link to another organization, I always ask. It is the
>polite thing to do.
>
>ellery july
>Technical Lead
>Northwest Area Foundation
>332 Minnesota
>E -1201
>St. Paul, MN 55101
>p 651-225-3895
>f 651-225-7695
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: stobrien () wajones org [mailto:stobrien () wajones org]
>Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 3:10 PM
>To: riders () topica com; orgwebmasters () mail-list com
>Subject: [Riders] FC: Better Business Bureau tries to ban links to its
>website
>
>
>  ----- Forwarded by Sean T. O'Brien/staff/wajones on 03/14/2001 04:07 PM
>-----
>
>If the below message is accurate, it's part of a disturbing trend that
>I've
>been chronicling for a while. The Better Business Bureau appears to be
>acting like a bully, and not a particularly bright one at that.
>
>Everyone from news organizations to search engines relies on unapproved
>linking to inform their audience and stay in business. Critics use links
>to
>identify companies or groups that should be the target of boycotts.
>Companies link to competitors, customers, and suppliers. Trying to claim
>copyright in your URL shows not just a lack of legal clue, but an absence
>of Net-savvy.
>
>The U.S. Copyright Office says (37 C.F.R. 202.1) works "not subject to
>copyright" include "words and short phrases such as names, titles, and
>slogans." (http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfr-retrieve.html#page1)
>Presumably that would apply to URLs as well.
>
>For background:
>http://www.politechbot.com/p-01589.html (news sites try to charge for
links)
>http://www.politechbot.com/p-01185.html (journalists and linking)
>http://www.politechbot.com/p-01667.html (decss and linking)
>
>I invite the BBB to clarify its position.
>
>-Declan
>
>*********
>
> >From: "Meir Liraz" <meir () bizmove com>
> >To: <macauthority () cobb com>
> >Subject: The BBB claims links on other sites pointing to its Website
are
> >copyrighted
> >Sender: "Meir Liraz" <meir () bizmove com>
> >Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:52:49 +0200
> >
> >
> >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> >
> >Attention: Business and Internet - editors
> >
> >-------------------------------------
> >The Better Business Bureau demand that Websites remove
> >links pointing to its Website claiming hyperlinks on
> >other websites that point to BBB site are copyrighted
> >-------------------------------------
> >
> >March 14, 2001: The Better Business Bureau Council adopted a new policy
> >recently. It started approaching Websites across the Internet that
>contains
> >links pointing to its Website, demanding that all links pointing to BBB
> >Websites be removed. The BBB bases its request on the premise that
since
> >the material on its Website is copyrighted, Websites need BBB
permission
>to
> >present links pointing to its sites. Currently there are more than
10,000
> >Websites on the Internet that contain links pointing to the BBB
website.
> >
> >BizMove.com is a privately owned business that maintains a Website
>titled:
> >"The Small Business Knowledge base" (http://www.bizmove.com). The
> >BizMove.com website is geared towards small business owners and
contains
> >various guides and resources. One of the pages on the BizMove.com site
> >contains links pointing to various pages on the BBB site (see:
> >http://www.bizmove.com/BBB/index.htm).
> >
> >Earlier this week the BizMove.com webmaster received an email signed by
> >Beth Zialcita from the Council of Better Business Bureaus, Inc.,
>demanding
> >that BizMove.com remove all links on its site that point to the BBB
> >Website. In the e-mail Mrs. Zialcita claims that since the links point
to
> >pages that contains BBB copyrighted material websites need its
permission
> >to present links pointing to BBB site (See below the full text of the
BBB
> >email).
> >
> >In a reply to the BBB email, Meir Liraz, President of BizMove.com
>indicated
> >his refusal to comply with the BBB request adding that BizMove.com will
> >continue to present on its Website hyperlinks pointing to BBB sites.
> >
> >In regard to the BBB request, Mr. Liraz commented that he is willing to
>go
> >to court to protect the right of Websites to present hyperlinks
pointing
>to
> >other sites without the need for  permission to do so from the sites in
> >question.
> >
> >Commenting on the new BBB stand, an Internet industry source said that
if
> >the courts adopt the BBB interpretation of the copyright law it means a
> >major upset for some of the biggest players in the Internet business
>arena.
> >Names like Yahoo, Alta Vista, Excite and Lycos base their whole
business
> >models on presenting searchers with lists of links pointing to various
> >websites, and they don't ask for permission from firms to present
> >hyperlinks pointing to their sites.
> >
> >The Council of Better Business Bureaus is the umbrella organization for
>the
> >Better Business Bureau (BBB) system, which was founded in 1912 and is
>today
> >supported by 250,000 local business members nationwide. The BBB is also
> >supported by more than 300 national corporations and by 132 local
Better
> >Business Bureaus. According to its mission statement the BBB is
>"Dedicated
> >to fostering fair and honest relationships between businesses and
> >consumers, instilling consumer confidence and contributing to an
ethical
> >business environment"
> >
> >BizMove.com is a privately owned publishing firm. BizMove.com maintains
>The
> >Small Business Knowledge Base Website (http://www.bizmove.com) and is the
> >publisher of the Managing a Small Business CD-ROM and various
additional
> >information products geared towards entrepreneurs and small business
> >owners.
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Here's the text of the Email sent by the BBB to BizMove.com:
> >------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Zialcita, Beth [mailto:bzialcita () cbbb bbb org]
> >Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 4:28 PM
> >
> >Subject: BBB links
> >
> >To the Webmaster:
> >
> >As a member of the Council of Better Business Bureaus' (the Council)
>Legal
> >Department, I am writing about your hyperlink to Better Business Bureau
>web
> >site located at http://www.bizmove.com/BBB/index.htm.
> >I must ask that you delete immediately and remove any hyperlinks to our
>web
> >site.
> >
> >As a matter of policy, the Better Business Bureau does not sponsor,
>endorse
> >or approve companies. Your hyperlink to www.bbb.org may imply or
mislead
> >consumers into assuming that our organization supports your business or
> >that there is a business relationship between us.  In addition,
materials
> >from our web site is copyrighted, and, therefore, cannot be linked to
> >without permission from the BBB.  Presently, we are only allowing links
>to
> >government agencies, educational institution, news media and members of
>the
> >BBB.
> >
> >I trust the Council can rely upon your immediate removal of the Better
> >Business Bureau hyperlink to our site from your site.
> >Please contact me at bzialcita () cbbb bbb org if you have any further
> >questions about this matter.
> >
> >Thank you for your cooperation.
> >
> >Beth Zialcita
> >Online Trademark Enforcement Specialist
> >Council of Better Business Bureaus, Inc.
> >-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Contact Information:
> >
> >Beth Zialcita
> >Online Trademark Enforcement Specialist
> >Council of Better Business Bureaus, Inc.
> >bzialcita () cbbb bbb org
> >
> >Meir Liraz
> >President, BizMove.com
> >meir () bizmove com
> >-------------------------------
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list
>You may redistribute this message freely if it remains intact.
>To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html
>This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>T O P I C A  -- Learn More. Surf Less.
>Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose.
>http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01

____________________________________________________________
T O P I C A  -- Learn More. Surf Less.
Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose.
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01




-------------------------------------------------------------------------
POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list
You may redistribute this message freely if it remains intact.
To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html
This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------