FC: More on Simon Wiesenthal Center & Ebay; Net driver license

[Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>]

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Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 10:06:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Platt <cp () sedona net>
To: politech () vorlon mit edu
cc: Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>
Subject: Re: FC: Simon Wiesenthal Center attacks Ebay
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Ebay's comment about the problem of filtering merchandise categories is of
course absolutely correct. The ban on the sale of body parts and organs
seems to have been popular (for reasons I cannot understand); but what
about prosthetics? If a man with an artificial leg dies, can his estate
auction the limb? If a striptease artiste wants to sell her breast
implants, can she do so? (Note, there is an active market in second-hand
implants already, especially those containing silicone, predating the FDA
ban.) How about anatomical donations after death? Or newly manufactured
artificial skin? It's all very well to say, "We have to draw the line 
somewhere." Where?

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Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:45:25 +0100
From: "[anton.raath]" <anton () brain co za>
To: declan () well com
Subject: Re: FC: Simon Wiesenthal Center attacks Ebay
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This is something that makes me break out in a cold sweat. If any other
group or organization tried to flaunt this much power on the web, the
online community would kill it. 

The Simon Wiesenthal Center, as a Jewish organization, has no authority
to decide what online users should and should not access or buy. Like
any other organization on the web (including real "nasties" like NAMBLA,
anarchists, Satanists and Microsoft) the Center has the full right to
disseminate its opinions, and to inform people on what they feel is
right and wrong.

But banning books (either for or against Nazism) and restricting free
trade in goods in a neutral zone are the same abuse of power the Hitler
government was guilty of. The Nazis burned books, the Simon Wiesenthal
Center would see them banned. The Nazis closed down Jewish businesses,
the Simon Wiesenthal Center restricts trade in items it does not care
about. 

Specifically on the subject on Nazi memorabilia, I know of several
collectors who started their collections while serving with the Allied
forces in World War II. Doesn't quite make them "Nazi sympathizers",
does it? And I have often seen Nazi memorabilia for sale in Germany,
quite openly at flee markets and some stores. Not only do they sell
serious collector's items, they also sell cheap plastic knock-offs,
something much more likely to appeal to the "Nazi sympathizer" than an
actual collector's item.

Perhaps it's time for the online community's politically correct veneer
to wear thin where people try to restrict our freedom online. And
perhaps it's time for the growing online Jewish community to make
themselves heard on this as well, making it quite clear that neither the
Simon Wiesenthal Center, nor anyone else, have the power or the
authority to decide for anyone online what may or may not be said or
sold.

A!
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anton l. raath       ICQ:374187             new media pimp
mailto:animatronic () sagthang org       http://sagthang.org/
mailto:anton () brain co za        http://www.underbelly.org/
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Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 22:34:00 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199911260334.WAA25554 () smtp interlog com>
To: declan () well com
From: Doug Carroll <doug () interlog com>
Subject: Re: FC: Simon Wiesenthal Center attacks Ebay
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Madness. What if people wanted to show fascist symbolism in the Third Reich,
and read Mein Kampf to better prevent similar tracts with new names from
being accepted? Burying history is a great way to repeat it.

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Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 22:44:59 -0800
To: berezina () nihidyll com
From: Doc Holliday <rescue () wco com>
Subject: Re: FC: Simon Wiesenthal Center attacks Ebay
Cc: declan () well com
:

While, overall, I agree with the activities of the SWC and admire it's
founder for his work in hunting down the perpetrators of the Holocaust; the
SWC has lately become a "hate" machine of it's own. They use the law and
public opinion like a blunt instrument to suppress anything they don't like
- civil and human rights be damned.

Overall, Israel has the worst record of human rights of any American
"satellite" country that has ever existed. Formerly, I thought that honor
belonged to the Diem regime in S. Vietnam. But, Israel practices state
sponsored genocide and, particularly, discrimination, which the US people
would not rightfully stand for in a country such as Panama, (although we'll
see what happens after the canal is "donated" to them), mainland China or
Korea.

"The worm has turned" and now the persecutors have a publicist.

M. Steven McClanahan
B.Sci., MICP, M.Sci.
Holocaust and Genocide Scholar

__
M. Steven McClanahan
rescue () wco com
BSci., MICP, M.Sci.
doc_holliday () awwwsome com
Golden Retriever Technologies

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Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 15:05:54 +0100
From: Ulf Möller <ulf () fitug de>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>
Subject: Re: FC: Simon Wiesenthal Center attacks Ebay
Message-ID: <19991125150554.A64346 () public public uni-hamburg de>
References: <19991125131846.JMVL1696 () alaptop hotwired com>
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On Thu, Nov 25, 1999 at 08:16:36AM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> > | Just last week, Amazon.com said that it would stop
> > | selling Hitler's ''Mein Kampf'' in Germany, citing German
> > | laws prohibiting sales of hate literature.

It is illegal to reprint "Mein Kampf" (the copyright is held by the
state government of Bavaria), but as the Federal Court of Justice
decided in 1979, it is legal to sell pre-1945 copies.

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Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 10:26:09 -0800
To: declan () well com, politech () vorlon mit edu
From: Lizard <lizard () mrlizard com>
Subject: Re: FC: Simon Wiesenthal Center attacks Ebay
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At 08:16 AM 11/25/99 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> [The Wiesenthal Center's intentions may be good, but I'm not sure if
> reasonable people should praise book-banning efforts.]
Censors do not have good intentions. As I noted over two years ago
(http://www.mrlizard.com/tcrime.htm), the sole 'intention' of the SWC is to
keep itself alive and receiving donations now that every remaining Nazi war
criminal is either dead or drooling on their shoes.

Consider this:
> | marketing items, many of which glorify Nazism." The
> | letter then noted that the sale of such items is illegal
> | in Germany, a relevant argument because, using the World
> | Wide Web, any user anywhere can buy from Ebay. 

And, by the same token, many items the SWC would approve of are illegal in
places like Iraq and Iran and Libya. But if EBay were to ban the sales of
Israeli military memorabilia, the SWC would be on them like white on rice,
as they say in the South. Hypocrisy should not be praised.

That even you treat the SWC with kid gloves is disturbing. They're a bunch
of book-burners, and deserve the same contempt as the Christian Coalition,
Enough Is Enough, or Morality in Media. 

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From: Adam Powell <apowell () freedomforum org>
To: "'Declan McCullagh '" <declan () well com>
Subject: RE: Web coinventor says no access to Net w/out government "licens
        e"
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:25:24 -0500
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Tim Berners Lee certainly does not agree, based on his remarks at our event
last month...

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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:04:35 -0500
To: declan () well com
From: Ron Schwarz <rs () clubvb com>
Subject: Re: FC: Web coinventor says no access to Net w/out government
  "license"
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Nice idea, but why stop there?

Why not require a library card before someone is allowed to enter a
bookstore or read a newspaper?  And naturally, we'd need to log all
purchases.  For the children, of course.

If people want to read, they should be held accountable for *what* they read.


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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 11:31:49 -0800
To: declan () well com, politech () vorlon mit edu
From: Lizard <lizard () mrlizard com>
Subject: Re: FC: Web coinventor says no access to Net w/out government
  "license"
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You have to love the total naivete of some tech-heads. "Oh, there must be
liscencing, but it won't be ABUSED!"

That said, micropayments are a nice idea, but totally impractical. The
minute there is a widespread micropayment protocol, the same sleazes that
put up hundreds of javascript-controlled frames with blinking porno banners
will do the same with micropayment-enabled banners -- you'll spend 50 bucks
before you realize you've been had. (The alternative is an endless stream
of dialogs 'Do you want to pay a nickel? Do you want to pay a nickel?' Most
people would take the inevitable 'micropayments always on' feature. Then
there's security holes, which Microsoft produces by the alberthall.)

The creator of the web, of all people, ought to know that you cannot design
social phenomenon -- you have to sit back and let it happen. We have the
web we have, and it's not likely to change dramatically in the near future.
Banner ads, porno sites, and Anonymous Cowards are simply things we must
get used to.

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