RE: My Frustrations

[Sat Jagat Singh <flyingdervish () yahoo com>]

These are some good points that you raise.  I did a little bit of searching for professional associations that might 
provide unbiased information to organizations looking to engage security consultants.  I had in mind an organization 
that does not endorse a specific certification but would provide a summary of all or most of the relevant ones that 
exist and how they might fit with different kinds of job tasks.  There doesn't appear to be such an organization.  I'm 
sure various individuals have published such reviews.  I know I've seen a lot of banter about it on forums.  But I 
couldn't find such a professional association that doesn't also do certifications themselves, which they promote.  Does 
anybody know of such?  The key here is that all of the reputable organizations promote their own certification and 
don't say very much about any competing ones. I am primarily interested in associations that a U.S. company might look 
to for guidance, but it would
 be interesting to know if such a group has any clout elsewhere in the world.

ISSA might be a good forum for this.  I'm not a member.  Maybe time to go join.


--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Shenk, Jerry A <jshenk () decommunications com> wrote:

> From: Shenk, Jerry A <jshenk () decommunications com>
> Subject: RE: My Frustrations
> To: "pen-test list" <pen-test () securityfocus com>
> Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 4:31 PM
> Is being licensed really all that different from certified? 
> I don't
> know too many teachers but I know a couple really lousy
> ones and every
> couple days, I hear some horrible story about a teacher who
> had sex with
> a student or....  There are bad examples in the medical
> profession too
> and they're all licensed.  And drivers...they all have
> licenses.  My
> town requires plumbers and electricians to be licensed and
> they also
> require that one of those guys who is playing the system
> review my work
> if I want to do something myself.  I'll bet we can all
> come up with
> electrical and plumbing stories.
>
> No, I don't think licensure is the answer.  I think
> personal
> responsibility both from the practitioner and the one
> needing the
> service (or the checkbox;) is what's really needed.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: listbounce () securityfocus com
> [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com]
> On Behalf Of Sat Jagat Singh
> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:54 PM
> To: pen-test list
> Subject: Re: My Frustrations
>
> Having read your blog post, I would say that I share some
> of these
> frustrations.  But many organizations are really only
> trying to cover
> their asses and put a check in the box to say that, yes we
> got an
> assessment done to satisfy the letter of the regulations. 
> These are
> companies that are more concerned about the cost of the
> project than the
> actual security.  While such people tend to get what they
> deserve, it
> does create a negative reputation for the profession as a
> whole.
>
> Yes, I do think it is a "profession", but we have
> not "professionalized"
> ourselves by requiring licensing.  The industry reliance on
> certification rather than licensing as a credential
> somewhat serves to
> muddy the waters because the decision makers hiring
> security consultants
> don't really know what a given certification covers. 
> We could debate
> the value of different certifications until the cows come
> home but I
> don't want to insult anyone and we can probably agree
> that too many of
> them do not guarantee that the holder has real
> qualifications and the
> security unsavy will never really know how to evaluate
> that.  More and
> more I lean toward some form of professional licensure. 
> One of the
> states will have to move in this direction before a serious
> debate about
> it will be opened.  Until then, caveat emptor.
>
>
> --- On Wed, 12/17/08, Adriel T. Desautels
> <ad_lists () netragard com>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Adriel T. Desautels
> <ad_lists () netragard com>
> > Subject: My Frustrations
> > To: "pen-test list"
> <pen-test () securityfocus com>
> > Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2008, 11:19 AM
> > I recently wrote this blog entry and wanted to get
> some
> > comments from readers of this list. I'm frustrated
> with
> > the caliber of the people that are offering security
> > services and posing as experts, thats the subject of
> the
> > post. Please comment, insult, whatever... I'm
> > interested.
> >
> > http://snosoft.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> > Adriel T. Desautels
> > ad_lists () netragard com
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