RE: Informing Companies about security vulnerabilities...

["Arian J. Evans" <arian.evans () anachronic com>]

On ethical grounds re: extortion, I completely agree with you.

However, we still have no recourse to a solution. Playing nice
doesn't work.

What do we do about this? What have other industries done?

Regulation? Class-action lawsuits American style? Crusaders
and public voices? More mailing-list pontification?

Take this web stuff, right now, probably not a lot of impact
in terms of costing human lives. As one who's suffered hours
dealing with identity-theft due to a site compromise, there
is definitely impact, but not enough yet that most folks care.

Do we have to wait until these things start costing human
life to matter? Is that the pattern of most industries?

-ae 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: listbounce () securityfocus com 
> [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] On Behalf Of Craig Wright
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:53 PM
> To: pand0ra; pen-test () securityfocus com
> Subject: RE: Informing Companies about security vulnerabilities...
>
>
> Legally this is bad - it is extortion.
>
> Either release or not, but do not hold it over them. Taking 
> the law into
> your own hands is not a good idea
>
> Craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: listbounce () securityfocus com 
> [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com]
> On Behalf Of pand0ra
> Sent: Thursday, 5 October 2006 9:31 AM
> To: pen-test () securityfocus com
> Subject: Re: Informing Companies about security vulnerabilities...
>
> "You can try to set them an ultimatum pretending to disclose the holes
> to the public. Perhaps they are more willing to react if they 
> are forced
> to do so."
>
> Ethically, that is bad. You should never force (or threaten) anyone
> into doing something they don't want to. I agree completely with Jay
> and Dan.
>
> Joseph,
> 1. Never test a system unless you have written authorization (also
> known as the "get out of jail free" card). Period.
> 2. I know it is your responsability to teach your students how to
> identify an attack but you also have to show them what is ethical as
> well. By teaching them to attack another company's web application
> without permission is promoting behavior that could land your students
> in jail. What happens after the student is arrested when they tell the
> media that they learned how to do what they did in your class?
> 3. It's good that you notified the newspaper of the problem but you
> should not have been there in the first place.
>
> The suggestion for using hackme bank is perfect and won't land you in
> prison/jail/fines.
>
>
> On 10/4/06, Andreas Putzo <putzoa () gmx de> wrote:
> > On Oct 04, Joseph McCray wrote:
> > > Usually when we do this we only find a few simple things (XXS for
> > > example) - no big deal right. With this particular website we just
> kept
> > > finding another, after another and on and on. Over 600 
> instances of
> XXS,
> > > over 200 SQL Injection - this was bad. After a while it started to
> get
> > > boring there was so many....
> > >
> > > So I drafted a letter to the editor as well as several other
> prominent
> > > people at the newspaper. It detailed my finding and 
> recommended some
> > > possible mitigation strategies. After emailing this I didn't hear
> > > anything for a few days, so I emailed it again and 
> followed up with
> a
> > > phone call. After getting no response to the second email and then
> > > having been bounced around from department to department when I
> called I
> > > just said forget it.
> >
> > You can try to set them an ultimatum pretending to disclose 
> the holes
> > to the public. Perhaps they are more willing to react if they are
> forced
> > to do so.
> > Depending on the information you can get through the 
> website (customer
> > data anywhere?) and the laws in your country (IANAL, btw.)
> > you may go to the intrigued publicity, indeed. They gotta have to do
> something if
> > someone defaced their website actually.
> >
> >
> > --
> > regards,
> > Andreas Putzo
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