Re: rules of engagement scope

[Sol Invictus <sol () haveyoubeentested org>]

Most people don't realize that you can still have a black box test and 
set a specific scope.

Simply have your Account Rep specify the scope and then the tester gets 
no information.  Only when information is found, the tester checks with 
the Account Rep to see if he can proceed a certain way or not.  
Obviously this means your Account Reps need to be very knowledgeable in 
setting up these tests.

Sol.

Ivan Arce wrote:

> Frankly I don't see what kind of logical reasoning leads from
> defining the scope for a penetration test ex-ante to committing fraud,
> maybe I need some rest to ponder about these things more seriously.
>
> Disregarding what is exactly disclosed after a penetration test (and to
> whom), which is what you are driving towards the fraud conclusion,
> a precise definition of scope *before* engaging in a penetration test aims at:
> - providing good data for precise estimation of cost, time, effort
> - providing a good indication of desired focus
> - providing a good indication of desired depth
> - providing a good indication of undesired breadth
>
> All of the above are NOT independent variables that can be considered
> separately. Finding the optimal mix for a given organization and the best
> suited team for that mix is the key to differentiate a good penetration test
> from a lousy one.
>
> -ivan
>
> mr.nasty () ix netcom com wrote:
>  
>
> > Rules of Engagement Scope is as absurd as legally shredding audit papers.
> >
> >
> > Let me give you an example.
> >
> > Pen-Tests are usually performed after a vulnerability test, which is done
> > to support a financial audit, which is used to provide shareholders
> > definite information regarding the stability of an organization.
> >
> > If an organization requires a limited scope pen-test without disclosure
> > wouldn't this constitute as a lie? Think about this just for a second. If
> > you sign a Government form and there are mistakes on the form then you
> > can be charged with FRAUD.
> >
> > So if an organization establishes 'ROE' that sets a limited scope on the
> > pen-test without public disclosure, why is that different than FRAUD?
> >
> > National Security?
> >
> > MHO is that pen-tests are as important as the certified financial
> > statements used by organizations and should have public disclaimers of
> > ROE.  When an organization is audited with certain constraints that
> > information is or should be disclosed within those statements.
> >
> > Information that is not disclosed regarding these limitations to me is
> > considered FRAUD!
> >
> > But then, that's just my opinion I could be monitored, jailed, fined and
> > detained.
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This List Sponsored by: Cenzic
> >
> > Concerned about Web Application Security? Why not go with the #1 solution
> > - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's Choice Award from eWeek. As
> > attacks through web applications continue to rise, you need to
> > proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the most
> > comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration 
> > testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with
> > a managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software 
> > (Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can
> > help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php And, now for a
> > limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your results from
> > other product. Contact us at request () cenzic com for details. 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >    
>
>  


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This List Sponsored by: Cenzic

Concerned about Web Application Security? 
Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's 
Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise, 
you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the 
most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration 
testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a 
managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software 
(Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can 
help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php 
And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your 
results from other product. Contact us at request () cenzic com for details.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------