RE: Vulnerability Assessment vs. PenTest

[Bob Radvanovsky <rsradvan () unixworks net>]

See comments below...

-r

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Accioly Rosa [mailto:listas.accioly () terra com br]
To: pen-test () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: Vulnerability Assessment vs. PenTest


> What I find most interesting in these discussions is that even tough we are
> all seasoned professionals, we can't agree 100% on a definition neither to
> Vulnerability Assessment or Pen Testing.
>
> What lesson should we take from this? I'm not saying that we don't know what
> we are doing (most of use here are very good professionals), but maybe there
> is too much "art" in this job... Each day that goes by I believe more and
> more that we need to agree on common grounds on how we perform our duties...

I think much of it comes from the "human factor" in that we view things differently; thus, the method of approach we 
take will always be different.  Even the so-called "security standards" are variable in of themselves, too.  So, don't 
just be pointing fingers at the individuals.  Organizations that are representative of this industry, too, have issues 
with agreeing upon a set of standards or guidelines.  ISO is one way, SANS is another, DoD yet another, NSA even still 
another, etc., etc.

To me, the overall schema of things is how we (as an industry) perceive threats and their vulnerabilities, and what are 
associated to them.  Once that is agreed on, the rest of it might fall better into place.  ;))

> You are right StyleWar, coffee now would be nice.. :)
>
> Daniel Accioly Rosa, CISA CISSP
> daniel.accioly[AT]terra.com.br
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: StyleWar [mailto:stylewar () cox net] 
> Sent: 06 August 2006 01:01
> To: sol () haveyoubeentested org; 'Mark Ausley, CISSP'
> Cc: pen-test () securityfocus com
> Subject: RE: Vulnerability Assessment vs. PenTest
>
> I can break it down like legos.
>
> The value proposition of a pen test is an understanding of whether the
> investment into detection and response is at an appropriate level.
>
> The value proposition of a vulnerability assessment is an understanding of
> whether internal controls such as patch management, physical security etc.
> are adequate given a specific risk tolerance.
>
> Although one may use elements of the other, they are, and will forever be-
> very different things (despite the boutique's attempts to make them 'the
> same thing').
>
> In the hands of a good pen tester, a pen test does NOT have to exploit
> vulnerabilities in order to achieve its value proposition.
>
> In the hands of a good analyst, a vulnerability assessment will avoid
> excessive commentary on specific exploitable conditions, and instead expose
> the flaws that created the opportunity for those vulnerabilities to exist in
> that environment in the first place...
>
> ...Now-- go get me some coffee...Teaching makes me tired.
>
> :)
>
> -
>
> StyleWar
>
> "never underestimate the dousing effect of cubicles and consensus management
> on the candles of creativity and leadership" 
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sol Invictus [mailto:sol () haveyoubeentested org]
> > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:13 AM
> > To: Mark Ausley, CISSP
> > Cc: pen-test () securityfocus com
> > Subject: RE: Vulnerability Assessment vs. PenTest
> >
> > You guys are making this way too complicated.
> >
> > The only difference between a Vulnerability Assessment and a 
> > Penetration Test is the fact that a Pen test will verify that the 
> > vulnerabilities are in fact exploitable by actually exploiting those 
> > vulnerabilites.
> >
> > Many services will perform a VA and never run any exploits and try to 
> > pass it as a Pen test.  If you have someone doing that, then they are 
> > trying to overcharge you.
> >
> > The price between a VA and a Pen-test can be significant.  
> > Why is that?
> > it's the level of responsibility that the Pen-testers must take.  
> >
> > It's very important that your Service provider know the difference and 
> > is able to explain the difference.  If they can't do that then you 
> > should not use their services.  If they have a high priced VA then you 
> > need them to justify the "value adds".
> >
> > Sol.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 2006-08-05 at 00:47 -0400, Mark Ausley, CISSP wrote:
> > > A Vulnerability Assessment can vary in scale and complexity
> > but will
> > > generally include the following:
> > >
> > > 1. External scan with Nessus, STAT, Retina, etc to obtain general 
> > > security posture of systems.
> > > 2. Internal scan with something like CIS tools, DISA scripts, Gold 
> > > Disk etc to assess the configuration of the systems and
> > their patch levels, etc.
> > > There is some overlap between these first two steps.
> > > 3. Review system architecture and associated documentation.
> > > 4. Interview SysAdmins & Engineers on system operation.
> > > 5. Review existing policy, procedures, SOPs, etc.
> > > 6. Perform and document the risk analysis.
> > >
> > > A PEN test on the other hand can include any number of the VA items 
> > > but usually include a much wider array of testing tools.
> > >
> > > A PEN test is usually a few hours to a few days as opposed to a VA 
> > > which can take months to perform. Also, during PEN tests
> > you usually
> > > have little knowledge of the target systems prior to the test. A VA 
> > > involves unrestricted access and knowledge of the target systems.
> > >
> > > A PEN test usually has a pre-set goal. The scope of the testing and 
> > > its goal is usually spelled out to the tester and can be limited or 
> > > unlimited. A PEN test can be more likely to break or disrupt normal 
> > > operations than a VA and always requires official documents
> > indicating what is allowed.
> > > PEN tests really illustrate the relationship of vulnerabilities and 
> > > how they can string together to open a hole in what
> > appeared to be a solid wall.
> > > -- Mark
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: James Harless [mailto:jharless () kidwellcompanies com]
> > > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 4:57 PM
> > > To: pen-test () securityfocus com
> > > Subject: Vulnerability Assessment vs. PenTest
> > >
> > > Where is the line between a Vulnerability Assessment and a
> > PenTest?  
> > > In other words, which tests do you run which identifies your 
> > > assessment as a pentest rather than a VA?
> > >  
> > > And, related, do VAs still have value?  Do you feel that a PenTest 
> > > includes everything that a VA would (and more)?
> > >  
> > > My thoughts are that a VA is just an effort to document all the 
> > > identified and potential vulnerabilities on a network.  A
> > PenTest is
> > > an attempt to identify those vulnerabilities and then
> > exploit some of
> > > them to verify their weakness.
> > >  
> > >
> > > James
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This List Sponsored by: Cenzic

Concerned about Web Application Security?
Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's
Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise,
you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the
most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration
testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a
managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software
(Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can
help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php
And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your
results from other product. Contact us at request () cenzic com for details.
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