Re: Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 address block

[Tom Beecher <beecher () beecher cc>]

Fair enough, I misunderstood your question.

I still think it's basically not knowable.

On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 3:16 PM Mike Hammett <nanog () ics-il net> wrote:

> I'm not talking about global, public use, only private use.
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
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> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Tom Beecher" <beecher () beecher cc>
> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog () ics-il net>
> *Cc: *"Ryan Hamel" <ryan () rkhtech org>, "Abraham Y. Chen" <
> AYChen () alum mit edu>, nanog () nanog org
> *Sent: *Friday, January 12, 2024 2:06:32 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4
> address block
>
> You don't need everything in the world to support it, just the things
> > "you" use.
>
>
> You run an ISP, let me posit something.
>
> Stipulate your entire network infra, services, and applications support
> 240/4, and that it's approved for global , public use tomorrow. Some
> company gets a block in there, stands up some website. Here are some
> absolutely plausible scenarios that you might have to deal with.
>
> - Some of your customers are running operating systems / network gear that
> doesn't support 240/4.
> - Some of your customers may be using 3rd party DNS resolvers that don't
> support 240/4.
> - Some network in between you and the dest missed a few bogon ACLs ,
> dropping your customer's traffic.
>
> All of this becomes support issues you have to deal with.
>
> On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 2:21 PM Mike Hammett <nanog () ics-il net> wrote:
>
> > I wouldn't say it's unknowable, just that no one with a sufficient enough
> > interest in the cause has been loud enough with the research they've done,
> > assuming some research has been done..
> >
> > You don't need everything in the world to support it, just the things
> > "you" use.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > Mike Hammett
> > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> > <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> > <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> > <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> > <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> > <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> > <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> > <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> > ------------------------------
> > *From: *"Tom Beecher" <beecher () beecher cc>
> > *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog () ics-il net>
> > *Cc: *"Ryan Hamel" <ryan () rkhtech org>, "Abraham Y. Chen" <
> > AYChen () alum mit edu>, nanog () nanog org
> > *Sent: *Friday, January 12, 2024 1:16:53 PM
> > *Subject: *Re: Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4
> > address block
> >
> > How far are we from that, in reality? I don't have any intention on using
> > > the space, but I would like to put some definition to this boogey man.
> >
> >
> > It's unknowable really.
> >
> > Lots of network software works just fine today with it. Some don't. To my
> > knowledge some NOS vendors have outright refused to support 240/4 unless
> > it's reclassified. Beyond network equipment, there is an unknowable number
> > of software packages , drivers, etc out in the world which 240/4 is still
> > hardcoded not to work. It's been unfortunate to see this fact handwaved
> > away in many discussions on the subject.
> >
> > The Mirai worm surfaced in 2016. The software vulnerabilities used in its
> > attack vectors are still unpatched and present in massive numbers
> > across the internet; there are countless variants that still use the same
> > methods, 8 years later. Other vulnerabilities still exist after
> > multiple decades. But we somehow think devices will be patched to support
> > 240/4 quickly?
> >
> > It's just unrealistic.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 1:03 PM Mike Hammett <nanog () ics-il net> wrote:
> >
> > > " every networking vendor, hardware vendor, and OS vendor"
> > >
> > > How far are we from that, in reality? I don't have any intention on
> > > using the space, but I would like to put some definition to this boogey man.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----
> > > Mike Hammett
> > > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> > > <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> > > <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> > > <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> > > <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> > > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> > > <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> > > <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> > > <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> > > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> > > <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> > > <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> > > ------------------------------
> > > *From: *"Ryan Hamel" <ryan () rkhtech org>
> > > *To: *"Abraham Y. Chen" <aychen () avinta com>, "Vasilenko Eduard" <
> > > vasilenko.eduard () huawei com>
> > > *Cc: *"Abraham Y. Chen" <AYChen () alum MIT edu>, nanog () nanog org
> > > *Sent: *Thursday, January 11, 2024 11:04:31 PM
> > > *Subject: *Re: Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4
> > > address block
> > >
> > > Abraham,
> > >
> > > You may not need permission from the IETF, but you effectively need it
> > > from every networking vendor, hardware vendor, and OS vendor. If you do not
> > > have buy in from key stakeholders, it's dead-on arrival.
> > >
> > > Ryan
> > > ------------------------------
> > > *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org () nanog org> on behalf of
> > > Abraham Y. Chen <aychen () avinta com>
> > > *Sent:* Thursday, January 11, 2024 6:38:52 PM
> > > *To:* Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard () huawei com>
> > > *Cc:* Chen, Abraham Y. <AYChen () alum MIT edu>; nanog () nanog org <
> > > nanog () nanog org>
> > > *Subject:* Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4
> > > address block
> > >
> > > Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take
> > > care when clicking links or opening attachments.
> > >
> > > Hi, Vasilenko:
> > >
> > > 1)    ... These “multi-national conglo” has enough influence on the
> > > IETF to not permit it.":
> > >
> > >     As classified by Vint Cerf, 240/4 enabled EzIP is an overlay network
> > > that may be deployed stealthily (just like the events reported by the
> > > RIPE-LAB). So, EzIP deployment does not need permission from the IETF.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > >
> > > Abe (2024-01-11 21:38 EST)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2024-01-11 01:17, Vasilenko Eduard wrote:
> > >
> > > > It has been known that multi-national conglomerates have been using
> > > it without announcement.
> > >
> > > This is an assurance that 240/4 would never be permitted for Public
> > > Internet. These “multi-national conglo” has enough influence on the
> > > IETF to not permit it.
> > >
> > > Ed/
> > >
> > > *From:* NANOG [
> > > mailto:nanog-bounces+vasilenko.eduard=huawei.com () nanog org
> > > <nanog-bounces+vasilenko.eduard=huawei.com () nanog org>] *On Behalf Of *Abraham
> > > Y. Chen
> > > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 10, 2024 3:35 PM
> > > *To:* KARIM MEKKAOUI <amekkaoui () mektel ca> <amekkaoui () mektel ca>
> > > *Cc:* nanog () nanog org; Chen, Abraham Y. <AYChen () alum MIT edu>
> > > <AYChen () alum MIT edu>
> > > *Subject:* 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 address block
> > > *Importance:* High
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi, Karim:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 1)    If you have control of your own equipment (I presume that your
> > > business includes IAP - Internet Access Provider, since you are asking to
> > > buy IPv4 blocks.), you can get a large block of reserved IPv4 address *for
> > > free* by *disabling* the program codes in your current facility that
> > > has been *disabling* the use of 240/4 netblock. Please have a look at
> > > the below whitepaper. Utilized according to the outlined disciplines, this
> > > is a practically unlimited resources. It has been known that multi-national
> > > conglomerates have been using it without announcement. So, you can do so
> > > stealthily according to the proposed mechanism which establishes uniform
> > > practices, just as well.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >     https://www.avinta.com/phoenix-1/home/RevampTheInternet.pdf
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2)    Being an unorthodox solution, if not controversial, please follow
> > > up with me offline. Unless, other NANOGers express their interests.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Abe (2024-01-10 07:34 EST)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2024-01-07 22:46, KARIM MEKKAOUI wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Nanog Community
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Any idea please on the best way to buy IPv4 blocs and what is the price?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > KARIM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
> > >
> > > Virus-free.www.avast.com
> > > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>