Re: New minimum speed for US broadband connections

[Brian Johnson <brian.johnson () netgeek us>]

Given this premise (that it is too expensive to provide access to rural areas), can you explain why nearly 100% of 
North Dakota is serviced by FTTH solutions. The exceptions being the areas still run by the traditional LECs?

I’m not to sure this should be an urban/rural debate. 

> On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:53 PM, Josh Luthman <josh () imaginenetworksllc com> wrote:
>
> Ryan,
>
> This discussion was in regards to urban areas.
>
> Regarding your example, though, I expect you're in a hard to reach rural area based on your description.  It looks 
> like there are absolutely a massive amount of trees, making it hard for fixed wireless.  Since it sounds like your 
> only option, which is better than no option at all, that's probably why no wired solution has decided to build 
> service there.  At $50k/mile being a pretty modest cost, at $200/mo does that seem like a viable business plan to you?
>
> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 11:25 PM Ryan Rawdon <ryan () u13 net <mailto:ryan () u13 net>> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 16, 2022, at 4:46 PM, Michael Thomas <mike () mtcc com <mailto:mike () mtcc com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2/16/22 1:36 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
> > > What is the embarrassment?
> > That in the tech center of the world that we're so embarrassingly behind the times with broadband. I'm going to get 
> > fiber in the rural Sierra Nevada before Silicon Valley. In fact, I already have it, they just haven't installed the 
> > NID. 
> >
> > Mike
> I will provide another specific example albeit not San Jose but similar enough.  I am in  Loudoun County less than 25 
> minutes from Ashburn, VA.    My best option is fixed wireless from All Points Broadband (hi Tim) which is 15/3mbit/s 
> costing $199/mo (they have cheaper, slower tiers available).  
>
> Verizon FiOS serves a dense developer-built community less than 1 mile down the street from me, but everyone else 
> outside of the towns and developer-built communities have almost zero options.
>
> Similar to the San Jose examples, we are near some of the most dense connectivity in the world.  Travel 20-30 minutes 
> in certain directions from Ashburn and you’re quickly seeing farms and limited connectivity.
>
> Ryan
> > > On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 4:28 PM Michael Thomas <mike () mtcc com <mailto:mike () mtcc com>> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2/16/22 1:13 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
> > > > I'll once again please ask for specific examples as I continue to see the generic "it isn't in some parts of San 
> > > > Jose".
> > > >
> > > > On the note of the generic area of San Jose, I'm all but certain this has a lot to do with California and its 
> > > > extraordinarily complicated and near impossible accessibility to obtain CLEC status.  This makes competition 
> > > > pretty much impossible and makes the costs of operating one extraordinarily high.  I'm obviously not going to be 
> > > > one that claims that government is good or bad, just pointing out a certain correlation which could potentially be 
> > > > causation.
> > > Sonic has been installing fiber in San Francisco and other areas, but they are really small. Comcast can't be 
> > > bothered that I've ever heard. The only other real alternative is things like Monkeybrains which is a WISP. It's 
> > > really an embarrassment. 
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 12:52 PM Owen DeLong <owen () delong com <mailto:owen () delong com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Feb 11, 2022, at 13:14 , Josh Luthman <josh () imaginenetworksllc com <mailto:josh () imaginenetworksllc com>> 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Because literally every case I've seen along these lines is someone complaining about the coax connection is 
> > > > > "only 100 meg when I pay for 200 meg".  Comcast was the most hated company and yet they factually had better 
> > > > > speeds (possibly in part to their subjectively terrible customer service) for years.
> > > > >
> > > > > > An apartment building could have cheap 1G fiber and the houses across the street have no option but slow DSL.
> > > > >
> > > > > Where is this example?  Or is this strictly hypothetical?
> > > >
> > > > There are literally dozens (if not thousands) of such examples in silicon valley alone.
> > > >
> > > > > I am not seeing any examples, anywhere, with accurate data, where it's what most consider to be in town/urban and 
> > > > > poor speeds.  The only one that was close was Jared and I'm pretty sure when I saw the map I wouldn't consider 
> > > > > that in town (could be wrong) but again, there's gig fiber there now.  I don't remember if he actually got his 
> > > > > CLEC, or why that matters, but there's fiber there now.
> > > >
> > > > Pretty sure you would have a hard time calling San Jose “not in town”. It’s literally #11 in the largest 200 
> > > > cities in the US with a population of 1,003,120 (954,940 in the 2010 census) and a population density of 5,642 
> > > > people/sq. mile (compare to #4 Houston, TX at 3,632/Sq. Mi.).
> > > >
> > > > Similar conditions exist in parts of Los Angeles, #2 on the same list at 3,985,516 (3,795,512 in 2010 census) and 
> > > > 8,499/Sq. Mi.
> > > >
> > > > I speak of California because it’s where I have the most information. I’m sure this situation exists in other 
> > > > states as well, but I don’t have actual data.
> > > >
> > > > The simple reality is that there are three sets of incentives that utilities tend to chase and neither of them 
> > > > provides for the mezzo-urban and sub-urban parts of America…
> > > >    1.      USF — Mostly supports rural deployments.
> > > >    2.      Extreme High Density — High-Rise apartments in dense arrays, Not areas of town houses, smaller 
> > > > apartment complexes, or single family dwellings.
> > > >    3.      Neighborhoods full of McMansions — Mostly built very recently and where the developers would literally 
> > > > pay the utilities to pre-deploy in order to boost sales prices.
> > > >
> > > > Outside of those incentives, there’s very little actual deployment of broadband improvements, leaving vast 
> > > > quantities of average Americans underserved.
> > > >
> > > > Owen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 4:05 PM Brandon Svec via NANOG <nanog () nanog org <mailto:nanog () nanog org>> wrote:
> > > > > What is the point of these anecdotes? Surely anyone on this list with even a passing knowledge of the broadband 
> > > > > landscape in the United States knows how hit or miss it can be.  An apartment building could have cheap 1G fiber 
> > > > > and the houses across the street have no option but slow DSL.  Houses could have reliable high speed cable 
> > > > > internet, but the office park across the field has no such choice because the buildout cost is prohibitively high 
> > > > > to get fiber, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are plenty of places with only one or two choices of provider too.  Of course, this is literally changing 
> > > > > by the minute as new services are continually being added and upgraded.
> > > > > Brandon Svec 
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 12:36 PM Josh Luthman <josh () imaginenetworksllc com <mailto:josh () imaginenetworksllc 
> > > > > com>> wrote:
> > > > > OK the one example you provided has gigabit fiber though.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 8:41 AM Tom Beecher <beecher () beecher cc <mailto:beecher () beecher cc>> wrote:
> > > > > Can you provide examples?
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twe6uTwOyJo&ab_channel=NANOG 
> > > > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twe6uTwOyJo&ab_channel=NANOG>
> > > > >
> > > > > Our good friend Jared could only get 1.5M DSL living just outside Ann Arbor, MI, so he had to start his own CLEC. 
> > > > >
> > > > > I have friends in significantly more rural areas than he lives in ( Niagara and Orleans county NYS , between 
> > > > > Niagara Falls and Rochester ) who have the same 400Mb package from Spectrum that I do, living in the City of 
> > > > > Niagara Falls. 
> > > > >
> > > > > This is not to say that rural America is a mecca of connectivity; there is a long way to go all the way around 
> > > > > regardless. But it is a direct example as you asked for. 
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 3:57 PM Josh Luthman <josh () imaginenetworksllc com <mailto:josh () imaginenetworksllc 
> > > > > com>> wrote:
> > > > > > There are plenty of urban and suburban areas in America that are far worse off from a broadband perspective than 
> > > > > > “rural America”.
> > > > >
> > > > > Can you provide examples?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 3:51 PM Owen DeLong via NANOG <nanog () nanog org <mailto:nanog () nanog org>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Jun 2, 2021, at 02:10 , Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa <mailto:mark@tinka.africa>> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 6/2/21 11:04, Owen DeLong wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I disagree… If it could be forced into a standardized format using a standardized approach to data acquisition 
> > > > > > > and reliable comparable results across providers, it could be a very useful adjunct to real competition.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we can't even agree on what "minimum speed for U.S. broadband connections" actually means, fat chance having 
> > > > > > a "nutritional facts" at the back of the "Internet in a tea cup" dropped off at your door step.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not saying it's not useful, I'm just saying that easily goes down the "what color should we use for the 
> > > > > > bike shed" territory, while people in rural America still have no or poor Internet access.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mark.
> > > > >
> > > > > ROFLMAO…
> > > > >
> > > > > People in Rural America seem to be doing just fine. Most of the ones I know at least have GPON or better.
> > > > >
> > > > > Meanwhile, here in San Jose, a city that bills itself as “The Capital of Silicon Valley”, the best I can get is 
> > > > > Comcast (which does finally purport to be Gig down), but rarely delivers that.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, anything involving the federal government will get the full bike shed treatment no matter what we do.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are plenty of urban and suburban areas in America that are far worse off from a broadband perspective than 
> > > > > “rural America”.
> > > > >
> > > > > Owen