Re: BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack)

[Large Hadron Collider <large.hadron.collider () gmx com>]

Nanog's quite a nice list to spend your sick day on. ;)


On 31/08/2017 19:04, Mike Hammett wrote:
> Sorry for now taking up 1/4 of this thread....
>
>
> My words in the last message don't match what I was thinking, but I think you all get the point. I'm sick, maybe I 
> should be in bed instead of on NANOG.
>
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
> Midwest-IX
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Mike Hammett" <nanog () ics-il net>
> Cc: nanog () nanog org
> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 9:02:07 PM
> Subject: Re: BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack)
>
> Actually, I do remember that one of them would optimize inbound routes, but only billed on outbound usage (as it was 
> content-focused). My in is over 8x my out, so hrm... maybe I'm on to something.
>
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
> Midwest-IX
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Mike Hammett" <nanog () ics-il net>
> Cc: nanog () nanog org
> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 8:55:46 PM
> Subject: Re: BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack)
>
> I would like to use a BGP optimizer, but I'm too poor. :-\
>
> That said, I'm also an eyeball network, so modifications of my own advertisements are what affects the desired traffic, 
> not so much the outbound routes. I know the BGP optimization industry is weighted towards content networks.
>
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
> Midwest-IX
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Job Snijders" <job () ntt net>
> To: nanog () nanog org
> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 3:06:49 PM
> Subject: BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack)
>
> Dear all,
>
> disclaimer:
>
> [ The following is targetted at the context where a BGP optimizer
> generates BGP announcement that are ordinarily not seen in the
> Default-Free Zone. The OP indicated they announce a /23, and were
> unpleasantly surprised to see two unauthorized announcements for /24
> more-specifics pop up in their alerting system. No permission was
> granted to create and announce these more-specifics. The AS_PATH
> for those /24 announcements was entirely fabricated. Original thread
> https://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/2017-August/092124.html ]
>
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 11:13:18AM -0700, Andy Litzinger wrote:
> > Presuming it was a route optimizer and the issue was ongoing, what
> > would be the suggested course of action?
> I strongly recommend to turn off those BGP optimizers, glue the ports
> shut, burn the hardware, and salt the grounds on which the BGP optimizer
> sales people walked.
>
> It is extremely irresponsible behavior to use software that generates
> _fake_ BGP more-specifics for the purpose of traffic engineering. You
> simply cannot expect that those more-specifics will never escape into
> the global DFZ! Relying on NO_EXPORT is not sufficient: we regularly see
> software bugs related to NO_EXPORT, and community-squashing
> configuration mistakes happen all the time.
>
> Consider the following: if you leak your own internal more-specifics, at
> least you are the legitimate destination. (You may suffer from
> suboptimal routing, but it isn't guaranteed downtime.) However if you
> generate fake more-specifics for prefixes belonging to OTHER
> organisations, you essentially are complicit in BGP hijacking. If those
> fake more-specifics accidentally leak into the DFZ, you are bringing
> down the actual owner of such prefixes, and depriving people from access
> to the Internet. Example case:
> https://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/2013-January/054846.html
>
> > reach out to those 2 AS owners and see if they could stop it?
> Yes, absolutely! And if everyone of the affected parties of this
> localized hijack leak (or should we say 'victims') reaches out to the
> wrongdoers, they contribute peer pressure to rectify the situation. Just
> make sure you assign blame to the correct party. :)
>
> > Or is it something I just have to live with as a traffic engineering
> > solution they are using and mark the alerts as false positives?
> No, this is not something we should just accept. The Default-Free Zone
> is a shared resource. Anyone using "BGP optimizers" is not only risking
> their own online presence, but also everyone else's. Using a BGP
> optimizer is essentially trading a degree of risk to society for the
> purpose of saving a few bucks or milliseconds. It is basically saying:
> "The optimizer helps me, but may hurt others, and I am fine with that".
>
> An analogy: We don't want transporters of radioactive material to cut
> corners by using non-existant roads to bring the spent nuclear fuels
> from A to B faster, nor do we want them to rely on non-robust shielding
> that works "most of the time".
>
> We share the BGP DFZ environment, 'BGP optimizers' are downright
> pollution contributors.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Job
>
> ps. If you want to do BGP optimization: don't have the BGP optimizer
> generate fake BGP announcements, but focus only on manipulating
> non-transitive attributes (like LOCAL_PREF) on real announcements you
> actually received from others. Or Perhaps BGP optimizers shouldn't even
> talk BGP but rather push freshly generated TE-optimized routing-policy
> to your edge boxes. Or perhaps the 'BGP optimizer' vendors should come
> to IETF to figure out a safe way (maybe a new AFI/SAFI to manipulate
> real announcements)... there are ways to do this, without risk to others!
>
> p.s. providing a publicly available BGP looking glasses will contribute
> to proving your innocence in cases like these. Since in many cases the
> AS_PATH is a complete fabrication, we need to manually check every AS in
> the AS_PATH to see whether the AS carries the fake more-specific. A
> public looking glass speeds up this fault-finding process. If you don't
> want to host a webinterface yourself, please consider sending a BGP feed
> to the Route Views Project or RIPE RIS, or for something queryable in a
> real-time fashion the NLNOG RING Looking Glass http://lg.ring.nlnog.net/