nanog mailing list archives

RE: NANOG Digest, Vol 44, Issue 55 - Re: ouch..

From: "Sutton, Allen" <Allen.Sutton () CenturyLink com>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 10:45:12 -0500


Well, I'm not surprised at all, being that Cisco also does this to Alcatel-Lucent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX3zvjX3c5Q

I think Cisco is just running scared now.  If they didn't charge so much for their products, they wouldn't have this 
problem.  In addition, I think they also thought that they would be # 1 forever and that nobody could touch them, so 
they just stopped trying to stay ahead of the competition.
_________________________________
Allen


-----Original Message-----
From: nanog-request () nanog org [mailto:nanog-request () nanog org]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:56 AM
To: nanog () nanog org
Subject: NANOG Digest, Vol 44, Issue 55

Send NANOG mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of NANOG digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. RE: NAT444 or ? (Dan Wing)
   2. ouch.. (Martin Hepworth)
   3. Re: ouch.. (Vlad Galu)
   4. Re: ouch.. (Nick Hilliard)
   5. Re: ouch.. (Brian Raaen)
   6. Re: ouch.. (Always Learning)
   7. Re: ouch.. (Frank Habicht)
   8. HP A-series, H3C, Huawei and their capabilities in real-life
      (Mark Smith)
   9. RE: ouch.. (Erik Bais)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 22:28:17 -0700
From: "Dan Wing" <dwing () cisco com>
To: "'Owen DeLong'" <owen () delong com>
Cc: nanog () nanog org
Subject: RE: NAT444 or ?
Message-ID: <0a4d01cc729f$1bc0abc0$53420340$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

-----Original Message-----
From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen () delong com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 9:43 PM
To: Dan Wing
Cc: 'Leigh Porter'; 'David Israel'; nanog () nanog org
Subject: Re: NAT444 or ?


Good point, but aside from these scaling issues which I expect can

be

resolved to a point, the more serious issue, I think, is

applications

that just do not work with double NAT. Now, I have not conducted
any serious research into this, but it seems that
draft-donley-nat444- impacts does appear to have highlight issues
that may have been down

to

implementation.


Draft-donley-nat444-impacts conflates bandwidth constraints with CGN
with in-home NAT.  Until those are separated and then analyzed

carefully,

it is harmful to draw conclusions such as "NAT444 bad; NAT44 good".


Continuing to make this claim does not make it any more true.

Draft-donley took networks and measured their real-world functionality
without NAT444, then, added NAT444 and repeated the same tests.
Regardless of the underlying issue(s), the addition of NAT444 to the
mix resulted in the forms of service degradation enumerated in the
draft.


I disagree it reached that conclusion.  That may have been its intent.

Further, I would not ever say "NAT444 bad; NAT44 good". I would say,
rather, "NAT44 bad, NAT444 worse". I think that's a pretty safe and
non-harmful thing to say.


Yes, your statement is completely accurate.  I agree that IPv4 address sharing causes additional problems (which 
encompasses all forms of
IPv4 address sharing), and CGN causes additional problems.

Other simple tricks such as ensuring that your own internal
services such as DNS are available without traversing NAT also help.


Yep.  But some users want to use other DNS servers for performance
(e.g., Google's or OpenDNS servers, especially considering they
could point the user at a 'better' (closer) CDN based on Client IP),
to avoid ISP DNS hijacking, or for content control (e.g., "parental
control" of DNS hostnames).  That traffic will,

necessarily,

traverse the CGN.  To avoid users burning through their UDP port
allocation for those DNS queries it is useful for the CGN to have
short timeouts for port 53.

If the user chooses to use a DNS server on the other side of a NAT,
then, they are choosing to inflict whatever damage upon themselves.
I'm not saying that short UDP/53 timeouts are a bad idea, but, I am
saying that the more stuff you funnel through an LSN at the carrier,
the more stuff you will see break. This would lead me to want to avoid
funneling anything through said NAT which I could avoid. Then again, I
run my own authoritative and recursive nameservers in my home and
don't use any NAT at all, so, perhaps my perspective is different from
others.


Yeah, you are probably of about 1000 or maybe 3000 people in the world that do that.  Seems to be a minority.

Certainly some more work can be done in this area, but I fear that

the

only way a real idea as to how much NAT444 really doe break things

will

be operational experience.


Yep.  (Same as everything else.)


I'm sure that will happen soon enough. I, for one, am not looking
forward to the experience.


Neither am I.

But if major content providers cannot provide AAAA on their properties, and if ISPs and CPE vendors do not make IPv6 
available and working, and if web browsers don't adopt faster fallback to IPv4 when IPv6 is borked ....  We will all be 
behind NATs.

-d





------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 11:42:35 +0100
From: Martin Hepworth <maxsec () gmail com>
To: nanog () nanog org
Subject: ouch..
Message-ID:
        <CAGDKorJEvBHG21zOtmoS634pCKgGb2o96ahCuePKqmunSX402Q () mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

http://www.overpromisesunderdelivers.net/


--
Martin Hepworth
Oxford, UK


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 12:51:00 +0200
From: Vlad Galu <galu () packetdam com>
To: Martin Hepworth <maxsec () gmail com>
Cc: nanog () nanog org
Subject: Re: ouch..
Message-ID: <E963444C-A6C5-4399-AB1D-806F59C63389 () packetdam com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

On Sep 14, 2011, at 12:42 PM, Martin Hepworth wrote:

http://www.overpromisesunderdelivers.net/



Saying the other brand sucks doesn't make yours any better. Besides, there are other big players on the market. 
Terribly lame of Cisco...

Vlad Galu
galu () packetdam com







------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 11:54:59 +0100
From: Nick Hilliard <nick () foobar org>
To: nanog () nanog org
Subject: Re: ouch..
Message-ID: <4E708803.5040506 () foobar org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 14/09/2011 11:42, Martin Hepworth wrote:

http://www.overpromisesunderdelivers.net/


Wow, classy.

Nick



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 07:15:08 -0400
From: Brian Raaen <nanog () rhemasound org>
To: Martin Hepworth <maxsec () gmail com>
Cc: nanog () nanog org
Subject: Re: ouch..
Message-ID: <20110914111508.GA6498@brian>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Looks like some random person registered this one.  The domain and ip do not look related to cisco even though someone 
has falsely pasted their logo all over the site.



whois overpromisesunderdelivers.net

Whois Server Version 2.0

Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.

   Domain Name: OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
   Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC.
   Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
   Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
   Name Server: NS35.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
   Name Server: NS36.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
   Status: clientDeleteProhibited
   Status: clientRenewProhibited
   Status: clientTransferProhibited
   Status: clientUpdateProhibited
   Updated Date: 05-sep-2011
   Creation Date: 05-sep-2011
   Expiration Date: 05-sep-2012

Registrant:
   Domains by Proxy, Inc.
   DomainsByProxy.com
   15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
   Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
   United States

   Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
   Domain Name: OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
      Created on: 05-Sep-11
      Expires on: 05-Sep-12
      Last Updated on: 05-Sep-11

   Administrative Contact:
      Private, Registration  OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET () domainsbyproxy com
      Domains by Proxy, Inc.
      DomainsByProxy.com
      15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
      Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
      United States
      (480) 624-2599      Fax -- (480) 624-2598

   Technical Contact:
      Private, Registration  OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET () domainsbyproxy com
      Domains by Proxy, Inc.
      DomainsByProxy.com
      15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
      Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
      United States
      (480) 624-2599      Fax -- (480) 624-2598

   Domain servers in listed order:
      NS35.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
      NS36.DOMAINCONTROL.COM



braaen@brian:~$ dig OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET

; <<>> DiG 9.7.3 <<>> OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 40339
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. IN      A

;; ANSWER SECTION:
OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  A       98.129.229.190

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  NS      ns36.domaincontrol.com.
OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  NS      ns35.domaincontrol.com.

;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
ns35.domaincontrol.com. 3046    IN      A       216.69.185.18
ns36.domaincontrol.com. 3046    IN      A       208.109.255.18


braaen@brian:~$ dig -x 98.129.229.190

; <<>> DiG 9.7.3 <<>> -x 98.129.229.190
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 26507
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;190.229.129.98.in-addr.arpa.   IN      PTR

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
229.129.98.in-addr.arpa. 300    IN      SOA     ns.rackspace.com. hostmaster.rackspace.com. 1314291452 3600 300 1814400 
300



---
Brian Raaen
Network Architect
Zcorum
On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:42:35AM +0100, Martin Hepworth wrote:

http://www.overpromisesunderdelivers.net/


--
Martin Hepworth
Oxford, UK




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 12:20:15 +0100
From: Always Learning <nanog () u61 u22 net>
To: Brian Raaen <nanog () rhemasound org>
Cc: nanog () nanog org
Subject: Re: ouch..
Message-ID: <1315999215.15630.3.camel () m6 u226 com>
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 07:15 -0400, Brian Raaen wrote:

Looks like some random person registered this one.  The domain and ip
do not look related to cisco even though someone has falsely pasted
their logo all over the site.


(1) If Cisco were responsible, would they want to advertise the fact ?

(2) If Cisco feel their intellectual and copyright property is being
abused, Cisco lawyers would have the Cisco name and branding removed in
seconds !


Paul,
England,
EU.





------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 14:20:56 +0300
From: Frank Habicht <geier () geier ne tz>
To: nanog () nanog org
Subject: Re: ouch..
Message-ID: <4E708E18.3070006 () geier ne tz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Main cisco page has a link to it...

Frank

On 9/14/2011 2:15 PM, Brian Raaen wrote:

Looks like some random person registered this one.  The domain and ip do not look related to cisco even though 
someone has falsely pasted their logo all over the site.



whois overpromisesunderdelivers.net

Whois Server Version 2.0

Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.

   Domain Name: OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
   Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC.
   Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
   Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
   Name Server: NS35.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
   Name Server: NS36.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
   Status: clientDeleteProhibited
   Status: clientRenewProhibited
   Status: clientTransferProhibited
   Status: clientUpdateProhibited
   Updated Date: 05-sep-2011
   Creation Date: 05-sep-2011
   Expiration Date: 05-sep-2012

Registrant:
   Domains by Proxy, Inc.
   DomainsByProxy.com
   15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
   Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
   United States

   Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
   Domain Name: OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
      Created on: 05-Sep-11
      Expires on: 05-Sep-12
      Last Updated on: 05-Sep-11

   Administrative Contact:
      Private, Registration  OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET () domainsbyproxy com
      Domains by Proxy, Inc.
      DomainsByProxy.com
      15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
      Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
      United States
      (480) 624-2599      Fax -- (480) 624-2598

   Technical Contact:
      Private, Registration  OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET () domainsbyproxy com
      Domains by Proxy, Inc.
      DomainsByProxy.com
      15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
      Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
      United States
      (480) 624-2599      Fax -- (480) 624-2598

   Domain servers in listed order:
      NS35.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
      NS36.DOMAINCONTROL.COM



braaen@brian:~$ dig OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET

; <<>> DiG 9.7.3 <<>> OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 40339
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. IN      A

;; ANSWER SECTION:
OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  A       98.129.229.190

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  NS      ns36.domaincontrol.com.
OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  NS      ns35.domaincontrol.com.

;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
ns35.domaincontrol.com. 3046    IN      A       216.69.185.18
ns36.domaincontrol.com. 3046    IN      A       208.109.255.18


braaen@brian:~$ dig -x 98.129.229.190

; <<>> DiG 9.7.3 <<>> -x 98.129.229.190
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 26507
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;190.229.129.98.in-addr.arpa.   IN      PTR

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
229.129.98.in-addr.arpa. 300    IN      SOA     ns.rackspace.com. hostmaster.rackspace.com. 1314291452 3600 300 
1814400 300



---
Brian Raaen
Network Architect
Zcorum
On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:42:35AM +0100, Martin Hepworth wrote:

http://www.overpromisesunderdelivers.net/


--
Martin Hepworth
Oxford, UK

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 14:27:20 +0300
From: Mark Smith <markrefresh12 () gmail com>
To: NANOG () nanog org
Subject: HP A-series, H3C, Huawei and their capabilities in real-life
Message-ID:
        <CAE79DorP-waM_EdHQJvQMw+mftM+BAv35tGhTz7TeYJTy-ON1Q () mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi list

Does anyone have (or know somebody who has) real-life experience of HP
A-series (former Huawei and H3C) high-end routers in service provider
environment? From the specs they look very good (both features and
performance) but the specs don't tell everything and nothing can
replace real-life experience.

The features I'm interested in include (not in any specific order)
- v4 and v6 routing
- BGP (full feed)
- OSPF and IS-IS
- MPLS(-TE) P/PE functionality (RSVP, L3VPN, VPLS)

For example this box
http://h17007.www1.hp.com/us/en/products/routers/HP_A8800_Router_Series/index.aspx

Any info or pointers greatly appreciated.

Rgds,
Mark

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 13:55:47 +0200
From: "Erik Bais" <ebais () a2b-internet com>
To: "'Frank Habicht'" <geier () geier ne tz>,      <nanog () nanog org>
Subject: RE: ouch..
Message-ID: <00a601cc72d5$3dc653b0$b952fb10$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

Hi Frank,

http://blogs.cisco.com/tag/overpromise/

Quote from the blog: "Some vendors have repeatedly over-promised and under
delivered, and still somehow receive credit for their vision! (You can read
more about one vendor's repeated broken promises here.)"

http://www.overpromisesunderdelivers.net/

https://twitter.com/#!/CiscoSystems/status/113226120601677825

https://twitter.com/#!/CiscoNL/statuses/113577908525744129

Personally I think this is a pathetic action from Cisco, however I'm not
surprised by them doing it ...

Regards,
Erik Bais

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Habicht [mailto:geier () geier ne tz]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 1:21 PM
To: nanog () nanog org
Subject: Re: ouch..

Main cisco page has a link to it...

Frank

On 9/14/2011 2:15 PM, Brian Raaen wrote:

Looks like some random person registered this one.  The domain and ip

do not look related to cisco even though someone has falsely pasted
their logo all over the site.




whois overpromisesunderdelivers.net

Whois Server Version 2.0

Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to

http://www.internic.net

for detailed information.

   Domain Name: OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
   Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC.
   Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
   Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
   Name Server: NS35.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
   Name Server: NS36.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
   Status: clientDeleteProhibited
   Status: clientRenewProhibited
   Status: clientTransferProhibited
   Status: clientUpdateProhibited
   Updated Date: 05-sep-2011
   Creation Date: 05-sep-2011
   Expiration Date: 05-sep-2012

Registrant:
   Domains by Proxy, Inc.
   DomainsByProxy.com
   15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
   Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
   United States

   Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
   Domain Name: OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
      Created on: 05-Sep-11
      Expires on: 05-Sep-12
      Last Updated on: 05-Sep-11

   Administrative Contact:
      Private, Registration

OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET () domainsbyproxy com

      Domains by Proxy, Inc.
      DomainsByProxy.com
      15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
      Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
      United States
      (480) 624-2599      Fax -- (480) 624-2598

   Technical Contact:
      Private, Registration

OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET () domainsbyproxy com

      Domains by Proxy, Inc.
      DomainsByProxy.com
      15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
      Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
      United States
      (480) 624-2599      Fax -- (480) 624-2598

   Domain servers in listed order:
      NS35.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
      NS36.DOMAINCONTROL.COM



braaen@brian:~$ dig OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET

; <<>> DiG 9.7.3 <<>> OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 40339
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. IN      A

;; ANSWER SECTION:
OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  A       98.129.229.190

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  NS

ns36.domaincontrol.com.

OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  NS

ns35.domaincontrol.com.


;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
ns35.domaincontrol.com. 3046    IN      A       216.69.185.18
ns36.domaincontrol.com. 3046    IN      A       208.109.255.18


braaen@brian:~$ dig -x 98.129.229.190

; <<>> DiG 9.7.3 <<>> -x 98.129.229.190
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 26507
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;190.229.129.98.in-addr.arpa.   IN      PTR

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
229.129.98.in-addr.arpa. 300    IN      SOA     ns.rackspace.com.

hostmaster.rackspace.com. 1314291452 3600 300 1814400 300




---
Brian Raaen
Network Architect
Zcorum
On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:42:35AM +0100, Martin Hepworth wrote:

http://www.overpromisesunderdelivers.net/


--
Martin Hepworth
Oxford, UK



-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3895 - Release Date: 09/13/11





End of NANOG Digest, Vol 44, Issue 55
*************************************

Current thread:

RE: NANOG Digest, Vol 44, Issue 55 - Re: ouch.. Sutton, Allen (Sep 14)