Re: Incompetance abounds at the InterNIC

["Chris Mauritz" <chrism () raremedium com>]

I've just recently had a case where a speculator charged a gullible client
thousands of dollars for a domain and then proceeded to do nothing when it
came time to update the records with the Internic.  It literally took a
MONTH of forwarding notarized documents and then many follow-up calls to get
the Internic to update the record.  By then, the client's web site had
launched....very ugly.

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Linneweh <linneweh () concentric net>
To: Jamie Norwood <mistwolf () ethereal net>
Cc: Dean Anderson <dean () av8 com>; Phil Howard <phil () whistler intur net>;
pete () kruckenberg com <pete () kruckenberg com>; nanog () merit edu
<nanog () merit edu>
Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: Incompetance abounds at the InterNIC


> I have personally seen charges as high as $3000.00 to recover a domain
> name from a speculator. I believe such prices gouging is a rip-off on the
> face value of it, and that it actually is harmful and harassing to a firms
> business.
>
> Henry R. Linneweh
>
> Jamie Norwood wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jan 22, 1999 at 05:01:13PM -0500, Dean Anderson wrote:
> > > At 02:37 PM 1/22/1999 -0600, Phil Howard wrote:
> > > > Since many speculators actually do not pay, the claim can stand up
very well.
> > > But they do pay. They get money sent to Internic sooner in the case of
a
> > > lapsed registration. [or they motivate people to pay before they lapse]
> > > They get people to purchase domains they might not otherwise purchase,
or
> > > that they might not otherwise purchase NOW.
> >
> > I don't see how this is true, unless I am missing something. They
register a
> > domain, and charge, say, $100 for this. Since, to make a profit, they
would
> > have to charge more than InterNIC. Now, someone going for a domain held
like
> > this is likely gone looking for that domain, not the other way around.
> >
> > So, say we have a domain, scalper.com. We really have 4 scenarios:
> >
> > 1) Noone ever wants it or buys it.
> >
> > 2) End-user wants it, registers with Internic.
> >
> > 3) Speculator puts in a template on it and doesn't pay unless they get a
> >    buyer. No buyer comes, it is recycled. Cost to speculator: $0.
InterNIC
> >    impact? A server usage that they never get compensated for.
> >
> > 4) Speculator buys it and sells it to end-user for $100, using part of
that
> >    to pay InterNIC and part as profit. InterNIC gets payed and is happy,
> >    but end-user pays $30 more than they would have if the speculator
> >    never found it (scenario 2).
> >
> > Now, as I see it, there is NO GOOD that comes from the speculator. Since
> > in reality they do this for hundreds, if not more, domains, and I am
willing
> > to bet they sell at most 10% of the domains they register, they are
adding
> > a high burden to InterNIC's servers, with no return. The domains would
> > sell just as easily without the speculator, and InterNIC would not have
> > to copensate for hundred of domain creations that they will .never. see
> > payment for. The speculator, of course, makes out the best; they have no
> > overhead, and make pure profit. Pretty sweet deal, maybe I should try it!
> >
> > > The costs of the non-completed registrations is trivial. So speculators
> > > make a net-profit for NSI.
> >
> > See above. The net-profit they claim to offer is proft Internic would get
> > just as well without them, and without the server overhead of a few
hundred
> > domains that will never be paid for.
> >
> > > > But if the crunch of templates is blocking _my_ couple of
> > > > templates from getting processed in under a week, then I really do
want
> > > > them to apply some temporary fix now to _this_ system so that do have
the
> > > > breathing room to put a better system into place.
> > >
> > > Except that you (and everyone) get worse service after the proposed
> > > changes. It will take everyone longer to get domains registered. And
you
> > > will have less information that you need to work (like on-hold status).
> > > [point gun at foot, pull trigger]
> >
> > Someone proposed the concept of having accounts with them, where your
> > billing info is on file so that you could register, and be billed that
> > way, and still keep the benefits of both pre-pay and post-pay systems.
> >
> > > > This war has probably resulted in "registration spam" where the
speculator
> > > > submits repeated templates, perhaps once per day, to re-register that
domain
> > > > hoping to narrow the window in which it is available to others.
> > >
> > > This makes no sense. I don't believe they re-register the same domain
the
> > > next day. Once registered, its good for at least 30 days, and the
creation
> > > date is on the record.  Re-registering sooner than creation + 30
wouldn't
> > > have any effect unless NSI starts trying to ignore speculator
> > > registrations. Then I could see them trying to register it again the
next
> > > day with a different name. But if that is the case, then NSI caused the
> > > flood by their own stupidity.  That cannot be blamed on speculators.
> >
> > Why wouldn't they, if they don't know when a domain will expire? What
cost
> > is it to them, who likely have nice little scripts that do all the work
> > anyway. They have no reason .not. to do so.
> >
> > > > The costs to speculators is on par with the costs to spammers.
Computers
> > > make
> > > > it easy to do.
> > >
> > > Actually, all you are saying is that the cost of an email message is on
par
> > > with the cost of a database transaction.  I'll agree, and won't argue
spam
> > > costs, because a bunch of us promised not to. While the comparision to
spam
> > > is very obvious in many ways, please don't make spam comparisons. We
can
> > > argue this without reference to spam.  Enough said about that.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > > Computers make it easy for NSI, too.   $35.00 pays for a lot of
computer
> > > cycles.  There really can be hundreds of thousands of misses per one
good
> > > registration.
> >
> > It .could., but does it?
> >
> > > Not having delayed/canceled payment, immediate registration hurts
everyone,
> > > including me.  When I sell a web-host, they want it up today. I suppose
if
> > > everyone else has to wait 30 days, it won't be any worse than, say
leased
> > > line delays, and if everyone has the same constraint, the playing field
is
> > > level, so it shouldn't cost business. [actually, thats not true, since
> > > selling something sooner means more revenue in a year--that's why we
have
> > > those marketing/sales folks. They get people to buy things now instead
of
> > > next month.  That makes a big difference.]
> >
> > See above. Give InterNIC a nice deposit to be allowed to pre-pay. No
deposit,
> > no reg until they have the money.
> >
> > > And you are complaining about delays. Presumably, everyone experiences
the
> > > same delays.  Yet, you propose increasing the delays, and then that
still
> > > won't stop speculators.  So what is the point? How is the system
improved?
> > > It isn't.
> >
> > But I agree, while it won't stop them, it will at least make them
contribute.
> > I don't consider it contribution when they have extremely little
out-of-pocket
> > expenses and a high amount of profit.  Make them pay for .every. domain
they
> > register, and I don't care if they resell it. Also, when you think about
it,
> > niw they can register a few hundred domains at no cost, unless someone
buys
> > it from them. But if to register those same 300, say, domains, will cost
> > them $2100, they will be a lot more hesitant, since it would be very easy
> > if you are unlucky to loose a couple thousand dollars.
> >
> > > But then, speculators are just a scapegoat. By definition, eliminating
the
> > > scapegoat doesn't fix the problem. It just diverts attention from the
more
> > > embarrasing, real problem. That's how I conclude they are just a
scapegoat.
> > The best scapegoats are the people who really are problems. But making
them
> > go away won't clear or hide all the problems, and it will be easier to
move
> > forward with fixing the other problems when they have one less excuse to
> > use on us.
> >
> > > > It's certainly convenient to pay later.  But it's not that great of a
> > > > difference to me.
> > >
> > > Then why are you complaining that it takes weeks to register a domain?
> > > Clearly, if these so-called anti-speculation changes are made, it will
> > > always takes weeks to register a domain.  You are shooting yourself in
the
> > > foot because you are afraid someone might step on your toe.
> >
> > Again, combine the two. Any ISP who is that worried should have no
trouble
> > keeping a $1000 account with Internic for domains. And even that much is
> > assuming you sign up bunches of domains every day. Real people should
need
> > less. There are solutions that will work. I, personally, would rather
> > pay by credit card and add a few hours to the time, than keep domain
> > scalpers and wait a week or more.
> >
> > >               --Dean
> > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >            Plain Aviation, Inc                  dean () av8 com
> > >            LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP          http://www.av8.com
> > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > Jamie
> >
> > Who likely should have remained lurking, but is tired and cranky.