Re: Provider credibility - does it matter? was Re: Inter-provider relations

[Karl Denninger <karl () Mcs Net>]

> Karl Denninger  <karl () Mcs Net> wrote:
>
> > Any provider that does not recognize the value of bilateral, no-settlement
> > peering anywhere that its cost-effective for both parties (ie: if you have
> > traffic destined for me, get it on MY network where I'm being paid to
> > carry it and let ME figure the rest out!) deserves what they get.
>
> Zero-settlement peerings open to anyone are demonstrably amount to
> subsidies from large peers to small.

No they're not.  The load which the small provider presents to you (in the
form of traffic to your CUSTOMERS) is miniscule by comparison.

Further, so is the load you present to THEM.

Finally, and FAR more importantly, the REASON you're having the traffic
dumped to you is that *YOUR CUSTOMER IS PAYING YOU TO GET IT TO THEM*.

If you refuse to perform that job, then your customer should find someone
who will actually live up to the letter and spirit of what your customer
is purchasing from you.

> That already was beaten to death.  However, i repeat the argument:
>
>                                Big Provider
> Customer A ---[POP] ------------- 1000 miles -----------[POP]
>                                                         |
>                                                        IXP
>                                                         |
>                         Customer B ------[POP]-1 mile-[POP]
>                                            Small Provider
>
> When customers A and B talk Big Provider pays to get them through
> 1000 miles.  Small Provider pays for 1 mile.

So what?  Customer A paid you to get the traffic to him.

It is in your best interest to do it.  You got paid to do this. If you
can't, Customer A will find Big Provider #2 (or Small Provider #2) who 
will.

The first time you tell a CUSTOMER as "Big provider" that "the reason you
can't reach Customer B, who you think is important, is because they aren't
connected to us and their provider won't *pay us to transport YOUR DATA* you
are going to find out, quickly, what the Customer's response to that is.

You might find out from their corporate counsel; if not, you'll definitely
find out from their purchasing department (or person) -- when they cancel
your service and move somewhere else.

Second, if Small Provider who *does* have capacity to that exchange point 
finds out what you're up to, expect to have that widely used in press 
materials and marketing efforts.

> Note that i didn't even talk about less measurabe, but way too
> more important things like hosting of information suppliers.
> Say, Big Provider connects 1000 web sites; Small Provider hosts
> 1 site -- benefit from peering in terms of Web site diversity to
> the Big Provider's customers is 0.1%.  To Small Provider's
> customers the benefit of peering is 99.9%.

Not if you're a customer of Big Provider and want to get there.  Your
provider either PROVIDES or you find someone who will.

You seem to forget the middle letter of ISP is *SERVICE*.  You want to 
talk to someone with a valid IP address on the Internet, your PROVIDER is
responsible for seeing that you can get to an exchange point where can be
found the network that serves them.

BOTH providers have an obligation here, and its not to each other.  Its to
their CUSTOMERS.

If the receiving network then refuses to accept the traffic destined for 
a customer WHO IS PAYING THEM TO TRANSPORT IT, the customer on that end 
has a very legitimate beef with their provider and IMHO has every right to
walk away and possibly even sue, contract or no (the provider just breached 
their material obligations).

> Zero-settlements work only when peers are of comparable size.
> Any attempt to extort pressure to force it upon anyone simply
> causes large folks to flee.
>
> --vadim

Anyone short-sighted enough who fails to understand that bilateral,
no-settlement PEERING (*NOT* transit) is in everyone's best interest
deserves what the market does to them.

I presume that (1) the people you peer with are clueful and don't do stupid
things on a regular basis, (2) they don't try to point default at you, etc.
That's a given in these discussions.

--
--
Karl Denninger (karl () MCS Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity
http://www.mcs.net/~karl     | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service
                             | 23 Analog Prefixes, 13 ISDN, Web servers $75/mo
Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info () mcs net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/
Fax:   [+1 312 248-9865]     | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -