more on seeking a forecast

[David Farber <dave () farber net>]

Begin forwarded message:

From: Marc <marcaniballi () hotmail com>
Date: May 21, 2005 6:49:43 PM EDT
To: dave () farber net
Subject: RE: [IP] more on seeking a forecast


I would add a question or two to this discussion;

What makes having your US citizenship stripped from you, such a bad  
thing?
Alright, maybe it's not what everyone WISHES for, but I hardly think  
it is a
crisis of any real importance to an individual.

- American citizens (as a generalised group) are among the least  
appreciated
visitors in the rest of the world. And there are plenty of countries  
where
citizenship is fairly easy to acquire.

- American citizens are the only citizens (that I know of) who must pay
taxes in the US, even when they live and work overseas. And they receive
only marginal benefit from their tax dollars.

By removing someone's citizenship, the "government" is losing a revenue
source, AND they are removing their jurisdiction over the individual.  
If the
individual in question has a second citizenship, then he can call  
upon his
embassy to step in on his behalf. Because he is no longer an American,
jurisdiction becomes quite clearly that of the other embassy. If the  
reason
for removal is a crime - then there is no reason to remove  
citizenship from
a legal/judicial perspective - the only reason I can think of, is to  
be able
to deport criminals and eliminate any means they might have of re- 
entry. I
can't imagine a good reason to do this, since the end result would be no
different than the death penalty - how long will foreign countries  
accept
deported american criminals? So why create the illusion of clemency,  
when
the illusion has no hope of surviving?

I guess my take would be that this will never happen. Anyone  
committing an
act onerous enough to merit this type of action, is a candidate for life
imprisonment or the death penalty.

Regards,

Marc Aniballi

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ip () v2 listbox com [mailto:owner-ip () v2 listbox com] On  
Behalf Of
David Farber
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 2:43 PM
To: Ip ip
Subject: [IP] more on seeking a forecast



Begin forwarded message:

From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law"
<froomkin () law miami edu>
Date: May 21, 2005 10:44:30 AM EDT
To: David Farber <dave () farber net>
Cc: Ip ip <ip () v2 listbox com>
Subject: Re: [IP] seeking a forecast
Reply-To: froomkin () law tm


Strip US citizens of their citizenship so we can torture them as enemy
combatants or deport them?

1. Citizens by birth: never (not legally anyway - rogues in the  
executive
branch may claim illegally to have done so but, as the Supreme Court
recently made it almost clear in the Hamdi and Padilla cases, the  
executive
branch can't toy with the rights of citizens in this manner.)

It would be unconstitutional.  Indeed, the principle of citizenship  
is so
fundamental that were the powers that be ever to do such a thing, the  
nation
they governed wouldn't be the US any more.

2. Citizens by naturalization: the question needs additional  
specification
because we do this already in special cases where the government can  
prove
in court that the person lied on their application [e.g. former Nazi  
prison
guards] or omitted something important.  The idea is that the fraudulent
acts in the application vitiate the naturalization.  Thus, you'd have  
to say
something like "stripped a naturalized citizen of citizenship for acts
committed subsequent to naturalization".

At which point the answer should be, and almost certainly will be,  
see #1,
since we don't have two classes of citizenship for anything other than
eligibility to serve as President.

On Sat, 21 May 2005, David Farber wrote:


> From: Paul Saffo <psaffo () iftf org>
> Date: May 21, 2005 12:10:38 AM EDT
> To: Dave Farber <dave () farber net >
> Subject: seeking a forecast
>
>
> Dave-
> I would be curious to know from the rest of the IP list when they
> think that the US will strip an American citizen of their citizenship
> and toss them overseas, or into a jail cell. Now, there are two layers
> of possibility: a naturalized American citizen, or a citizen by birth.
> Anyone willing to make a forecast?
> best
> -p

--
http://www.icannwatch.org   Personal Blog: http://www.discourse.net
A. Michael Froomkin   |    Professor of Law    |   froomkin () law tm
U. Miami School of Law, P.O. Box 248087, Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA
+1 (305) 284-4285  |  +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)  |  http://www.law.tm
                          -->It's warm here.<--


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