2 on Does File Trading Fund Terrorism?

[Dave Farber <dave () farber net>]

------ Forwarded Message
From: Scott Bradner <sob () harvard edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:12:03 -0500 (EST)
To: dave () farber net
Subject: Re: [IP] Does File Trading Fund Terrorism?

wacko - the whole point of most of the file trading is that the consumers
do not pay for the goods they get - collecting all of the no-money that
people pay and handing it over to bad guys would not fund a match

It is at best pathetic realization of the weakness of one's argument to
resort to using the threat of terrorism to attempt to sell an otherwise
unrelated topic.  This use is intellectually dishonest, but far too common
these days.

Scott


------ End of Forwarded Message

------ Forwarded Message
From: Dan Steinberg <synthesis () videotron ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:36:23 -0500
To: dave () farber net
Subject: **SPAM** Re: [IP] Does File Trading Fund Terrorism?

Dave, (for IP if you wish)

I read this a few times.  I know living in Canada I was never visibly
directly threatened by 9/11 but still....

How is it possible for someone to so publicly  "not get it"?

I mean, the recording and film industry have been complaining for years
about material loss due to copying pirating and now file trading.  But
they are alllways talking about the loss. Nowhere have they ever quoted
'profits' due to file trading.
There is a reason and it's quite simple.   No one who goes on the net to
download a file is going to pay one US cent or euro or even a devalued
canadian penny for a file that they can get for free. Some people do pay
for a stamped CD in some sketchy shop somewhere...this is true...but
they pay $$$ for hardcopy.  And this has been going on for years,
predating the illegal trading of files on the internet by years. And the
numbers quoted are allways lower than the losses claimed (even if you
accept the concept of comparing apples and oranges like this)/

Even if you can envisage college kids paying for stuff they could get
for free (as if!) think about it.  If you do something over the internet
that involves payment you are creating a paper trail.  Now why...on
earth...would a terrorist wish to create a paper trail?

For this scenario you need basicallly .
a) a dumb college student so completely ignorant of today's reality that
he/she fails to realize there is no reason to pay for this file
b) a terrorist dumb enough to leave a full e-commerce style trail for
someone to 'follow the money'

Considering that not everyone gets in to college, and considering  Rep.
Carter deems this problem to be widespread, affecting post-secondary
institutions in general and not just a few fringe schools, it seems to
me that Rep Carter (and the others) are saying
a) america's intellectual elite is dumb
b) terrorists are dumb therefore you should not have to worry about them

Sorry but I cant buy it.

Can someone on IP find fault with my logic, or is this merely the
congressional hearing equivalent to a rider put on a bill?


Dave Farber wrote:

> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: Matt Oristano <Matt () Oristano net>
> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:41:09 -0500
> To: farber () cis upenn edu
> Subject: Does File Trading Fund Terrorism?
>
> Dave - FYI:
> After Osama comes Kazaa.  Make sure you read down to Rep Carter's
> exhortation to throw some college kids in jail.
> Matt
>
>
> Does File Trading Fund Terrorism?
>
> Industry execs claim peer-to-peer networks pose more than just legal
> problems.
>
> Grant Gross, IDG News Service
> Thursday, March 13, 2003
>
> WASHINGTON -- A congressional hearing on the links between terrorism,
> organized crime, and the illegal trading of copyrighted material produced
> more complaints about college students using peer-to-peer networks and
> other governments sanctioning copyright violations than it did evidence of
> nefarious connections.
>
> Witnesses and representatives at the U.S. House Judiciary Committee's
> Subcommittee on Courts, the Internet, and Intellectual Property hearing
> Thursday did express fears that profits from widespread copying of movies,
> music, and software outside the United States were being funneled into
> terrorist organizations, but the hearing produced no concrete examples of
> that happening.
>
> John G. Malcolm, deputy assistant attorney general in the criminal division
> of the U.S. Department of Justice, did say there seems to be some
> connection between illegal copying and organized crime, in that many of the
> groups profiting from illegal copies are highly organized and can have
> international distribution networks. Organized crime often supports
> terrorism, he suggested.
>
> "These groups will not hesitate to threaten or injure those who tend to
> interfere with their operations," Malcolm said.
>
> Searching for Specifics
> But when subcommittee chairman Lamar Smith (R-Texas) asked Malcolm for
> examples of cases where file trading was connected to terrorism, Malcolm
> said he couldn't give concrete examples. "It would surprise me greatly if
> the number were not large," Malcolm added. "This is an easy enterprise to
> get into; the barriers of entry are very small, and the profits are huge."
>
> Smith and several others at the hearing noted that selling illegally copied
> materials can be more lucrative than selling illegal drugs, and several at
> the hearing compared the copyrighted materials trade to the drug trade.
> Illegally copied materials can have markups of 900 percent, Smith noted.
>
> Malcolm told the representatives of this week's indictment of Hew Raymond
> Griffiths, of Bateau Bay, Australia, for his role as an alleged kingpin in
> DrinkOrDie, a software piracy group founded in Russia in 1993. The
> Department of Justice is working to get Griffiths extradited to the United
> States, Malcolm said, and the indictment is part of the DOJ's "Operation
> Buccaneer," in which 20 U.S. defendants have been convicted of felony
> copyright offenses since December 2001.
>
> "For too long, people engaged in piracy believed that if they were outside
> the borders of the United States, they could violate our intellectual
> property laws with impunity," Malcolm added. "They were wrong. This
> indictment and the extradition sends a clear and unequivocal message to
> everybody involved in illegal piracy that regardless of where you are, the
> Justice Department will find you, investigate you, arrest you, prosecute
> you, and incarcerate you."
>
> More Than Money
> Malcolm also called the creators of "warez" file-trading networks organized
> criminals, although he admitted warez fans aren't motivated by money. Many
> warez groups, who distribute pirated commercial software over the Internet,
> operate in a very organized fashion, Malcolm said, with a hierarchy based
> on how much individual members contribute to the group. Much of the pirated
> material on the Internet comes from warez groups, Malcolm suggested.
>
> "They are nonetheless responsible for a massive number of pirated movies,
> music, games, and software in circulation each year, and represent a
> significant and growing threat to intellectual property rights around the
> globe," he said.
>
> Representative Robert Wexler, (D-Florida), praised the hearing for
> highlighting the "disastrous connection" between copyright piracy and
> organized crime. "I can't help but sit here and wonder...if parents fully
> understand the ramifications of what it is to steal a movie or pirate a
> song," he said. "If more American parents understood the connection between
> the pirating of intellectual property and organized crime, I think then
> there'd be a much more effective public relations response in our own
> country to better appreciate the disastrous ramifications."
>
> Wexler suggested public service commercials should highlight that alleged
> connection between piracy and organized crime, much like anti-drug
> commercials highlight the connection between the sale of illegal drugs and
> funding terrorism.
>
> Familiar Complaints
> Part of the hearing rehashed complaints about file trading by college
> students over P-to-P networks, covered in previous hearings and statements
> from the Motion Picture Association of America. No one at the hearing
> connected P-to-P trading with the financing of terrorism or organized crime.
>
> Jack Valenti, president and chief executive officer of the MPAA, described
> a couple of examples of copying operations that had been raided outside the
> United States, and he said 26 copying factories in Russia can copy 300
> million DVDs and CDs a year. He claimed his industry is losing billions of
> dollars a year to piracy, although a couple of representatives also pointed
> out the motion picture industry had record box-office receipts in 2002.
>
> Valenti predicted investors would stop investing in the movie industry if
> piracy is allowed to continue. He repeated earlier requests for Congress to
> pass new anticopying laws.
>
> Valenti also complained about P-to-P trading. "It's low risk. Nobody does
> anything about it," he said.
>
> Criminal Charges
> Representative John Carter, (R-Texas), suggested that college students
> would stop downloading if some were prosecuted and received sentences of 33
> months or longer, like the defendants in the DOJ's Operation Buccaneer. "I
> think it'd be a good idea to go out and actually bust a couple of these
> college kids," Carter said. "If you want to see college kids duck and run,
> you let them read the papers and somebody's got a 33-month sentence in the
> federal penitentiary for downloading copyrighted materials."
>
> The committee also spent a significant amount of the hearing listening to
> the testimony of Joan Borsten Vidov, president of Films by Jove, a small
> Los Angeles film distributor. In 1992, Vidov's company purchased the rights
> to restore and distribute a number of old Russian animated films, but Vidov
> accused the Russian Ministry of Culture of trying to redistribute the films
> without her company's permission.
>
> "What fits the definition of organized crime more than a foreign government
> deciding to steal the property of a small U.S. business?" Vidov asked.
> "That is the worst kind of organized crime by the most powerful possible
> organization."
>
> The Russian embassy in Washington didn't have an immediate comment on
> Vidov's or Valenti's testimony.
>
>
> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>
> -------------------------------------
> You are subscribed as synthesis () videotron ca
> To manage your subscription, go to
>  http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip
>
> Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/
>
>  

-- 
Dan Steinberg

SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology
35, du Ravin        phone: (613) 794-5356
Chelsea, Quebec        fax:   (819) 827-4398
J9B 1N1                 e-mail:synthesis () videotron ca




------ End of Forwarded Message

-------------------------------------
You are subscribed as interesting-people () lists elistx com
To manage your subscription, go to
  http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip

Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/