a bit of history more on Winston Churchill on Iraq

[Dave Farber <dave () farber net>]

------ Forwarded Message
From: "Kazem, Don" <dkazem () nas edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:57:11 -0500
To: dave () farber net
Subject: RE: [IP] more on Winston Churchill on Iraq

Dave; 

This is my last post on the issue as I do not want to abuse the privilege of
being part of IP nor waste bandwidth with reciting history that can easily
be found in the reference section of any library.

At the end of this post, I offer links that provide detailed information
about Iran's borders with IRAQ and Russia during that time. Although, when
it was established, there was no IRAQ and Persia established it with the
Ottoman empire. 

However, the following points are worth making:

I fully agree with Bruce Campbell that Churchill had a major impact on Iran.
Indeed, he shaped part of Iran's history. However, I must point out that Mr.
Campbell misconstrued my remarks.

He missed my point concerning Winston S. Churchill.  Let me be clear; the
text that was forwarded was an adaptation of his speech. Until I see the
actual text of his speech, I still find it hard to believe that a British
MP, and especially Churchill's grandson will claim that his grandfather
created Iran/Persia.

To allege that the British created Iran is absurd. Iran has been a country
for more than 2500 years, complete with armies, kings, borders, and
everything else that goes with it. And I do not believe that it is a proper
use of time or bandwidth to try to prove otherwise.

History has shown that sovereign nations are subject to cycles of power and
prosperity which is usually followed by periods of weakness. During such
periods, often foreign powers dispute the borders of vulnerable states,
attack them, impose their will, and attempt to take over some of their
territory. During such times, conquered nations may be subject to hegemony,
borders may be moved, even new religions or changes in culture may be
imposed on them. This does not erase the existence of the conquered
nation-state prior to the invasion.

Iran is no exception to this rule. Indeed, it has experienced many such
periods during its history. Recorded history reflects that Alexander the
Great, The Arabs, the Mongols, and the British (during WWI) all invaded
Persia during such periods. Kings fled, borders changed, the Arabs even
imposed their religion, but Persia did not cease to exist. Strong cultures
usually outlast the invaders.

Here is a relevant question: If we attack Iraq, throw out Saddam, and
install a military commander there for a while, even allow Turkey to annex
northern Iraq to deal with its Kurdish problem, does that erase Iraq's
existence off the map effective 2003??? (My own answer is no, but it would
be interesting to hear opposing views.)

To open the history books starting with 1921 and draw trivialized
conclusions based on a narrow slice of time, with a total disregard to
everything prior, is simply misguided. Here is a thirty thousand foot
overview of what happened during that period.

During the Qajar dynasty Persia was a nation-state and established a
constitution in 1907.  At the same time, Europe was going through
exponential growth and prosperity. The Ottoman Empire was established and
started to dispute some of Iran's borders. Russia invaded Iran and took some
of its territory (Persian Armenia), the British came and got all the oil for
40 years. These events all happened, but they do not erase Iran's existence
off the map.

The border in question, between Iraq and Iran, was first established in a
general agreement (without much detail) in 1639 known as the Treaty of Zohab
between PERSIA and the Ottoman Empire. There were a series of additional
treaties where details were clarified. The final treaty, known as the
Delimitation Commission Agreement, established Iran's current border in 1914
with the Ottoman Empire. This predates Churchill's involvement and is prior
to 1921. 

For a detailed description of these see:

http://web.macam.ac.il/~arnon/Int-ME/extra/AN%20ANALYSIS%20OF%20IRAN.htm

Parenthetically, Iran's northern border was disputed by Russia in 1828 and
was "re-established" by the Treaty of Turkamancahi. Here is a link for
further information.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/tu/Turkmanc.html

Also see: 

Great Britain & Reza Shah
The Plunder of Iran
By M.G. Majd
Published by University Press Florida; 2001












-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Campbell [mailto:bc () clicknation com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 1:43 AM
To: dave () farber net
Cc: Don Kazem
Subject: Re: [IP] more on Winston Churchill on Iraq




Dave,

In respect to the comment disparaging Churchill's grandson's statement.

Churchill was instrumental in several ways to the creation of Iran, a
nation that was not named until 1935 (despite Mr. Kazem's assertion
that it has been there for 2500 years). Persia may indeed have been
around in some form for many millennia, but so has Mesopotamia (the
basis for Iraq). In fact, I believe the geological landmasses
comprising this region are many millions of years old.

First, In the Cairo Conference of 1921, Churchill draw the map referred
to in the speech, determining the dissection of the region into French
and English controlled areas, and the eventual emergence of the states
of Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Transjordan, etc. As part of this
mandate, naturally, he set in course the myriad boundary disputes that
have characterized the region (up to and including the attempted Iraq
annexation of Kuwait in 1990).

There was no formal natural boundary (such as a river) between
Mesopotamia and Persia, so much back and forth ensued between the
British, who held the Iraq Mandate, and the then current Persian
regime. Iraq did not become independent until 1932.

In 1937, under strong pressure from the British (not Churchill who was
writing for a living at that point), the 2 countries concluded the
"Iraq-Iran Frontier Treaty". The Brits were attempting to secure oil
supplies (surprise, surprise).

In April 1941, Britain, under Prime Minister Churchill invaded Iraq to
stop potential German alliance.  Later, in August, Churchill (now prime
minister) and Stalin invaded Iran, deposed the Shah and installed the
Shah's son, Muhammad Reza Shah Pahlevi (remember him).

Iran regained its independence almost immediately (although heavily
influenced by British). The British left Iraq in 1948.

So it looks like Churchill may have had quite a bit to do with
"creating" Iran.

By the way, Churchill never liked the name Iran, he preferred Persia
(probably to stop the Iran/Iraq name confusion that bedevils so many
today). So he didn't create Iran because he didn't get his way in
naming it. Weak argument, there, Mr. Kazem.

I would remind everyone that history may have a lot that is "hard to
believe", but it isn't impossible to find a "basis" by researching such
questions as Churchill's role in Iran and Iraq. It's hard not to be
impressed by how many messes from Kuwait to Kurdistan to Israel to
Palestine can be traced to the 1921 Cairo Conference.

For an interesting, fast chronology of the Modern Mideast:
http://middleeastreference.org.uk/Chronology.html


The Snoofmadrune weblog:
http://www.clicknation.com/snoof/



On Monday, Mar 10, 2003, at 13:16 America/New_York,
"Kazem, Don" <dkazem () nas edu> wrote:

> I have no basis to question the authenticity of the article, but it
> would be
> hard to believe that a British MP, and especially Winston Churchill's
> grandson,  would claim that Churchill created Iran. Iran has been
> there for
> over 2500 years which I believe predates Churchill.



Bruce Campbell

72 Madison Avenue   12th Floor   New York, NY 10016   USA
(1) 212.685.2682  x 250                              bc () clicknation com


------ End of Forwarded Message

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