more on BBC article on spam "solution" of hashcash, from Microsoft

[Dave Farber <dave () farber net>]

Delivered-To: dfarber+ () ux13 sp cs cmu edu
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 11:19:17 -0800
From: Christian Huitema <huitema () windows microsoft com>
Subject: RE: [IP] more on BBC article on spam "solution" of hashcash,
 from Microsoft
To: dave () farber net, Dan Steinberg <synthesis () videotron ca>

Did Dan actually read the project description at
http://www.research.microsoft.com/research/sv/PennyBlack/? The MSR team
only uses the word "micro-payment" as an allegory; no money is actually
exchanged. The "stamp" is not proposed as a generic solution to spam,
but rather as a solution to a specific problem: how to make sure that
people can actually receive unsolicited e-mail. To quote from the
project's web page, the idea is this: "If I don't know you, and you want
to send me mail, then you must prove to me that you have expended a
certain amount of effort, just for me and just for this message."

The idea is to "resolve a puzzle that requires a significant amount of
CPU". There are many such puzzles that are asymmetric in nature, i.e.
finding a solution is hard but verifying it is easy. One of the
approaches presented in this project is to have an iterative hash of the
message value, sender identifier, receiver identifier and date
(http://www.research.microsoft.com/research/sv/PennyBlack/demo/lbdgn.pdf), 
where the receiver can verify that the hash terminates with the
requested number of zeroes. This does not involve a collection agency!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ip () v2 listbox com [mailto:owner-ip () v2 listbox com] On
Behalf
> Of Dave Farber
> Sent: Friday, December 26, 2003 10:30 AM
> To: ip () v2 listbox com
> Subject: [IP] more on BBC article on spam "solution" of hashcash, from
> Microsoft
>
>
> Delivered-To: dfarber+ () ux13 sp cs cmu edu
> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 12:20:00 -0500
> From: Dan Steinberg <synthesis () videotron ca>
> Subject: Re: [IP] BBC article on spam "solution" of hashcash,  from
> Microsoft
> To: dave () farber net
> Cc: Dave Farber <dfarber () cs cmu edu>
>
> Dave,
>
> Once again I'm not sure which address to send that wont get blocked by
> your
> spam filters.
>
> The idea of micropayment is not new. It has been brought up and shot
down
> about as many times as any I guess. The simple issue that fails to be
> recognzed by anyone who brings it up is collection. How do you
effectively
> collect these micropayments when one of the key problems in fighting
spam
> is the identity of the spammer is hard to find? Forged source address
and
> someone is coming to dave () farber net or synthesis () videotron ca with an
> invoice for mail we never sent.  Machines taken over by trojans, etc
etd
> and someone gets a bill for mail they had no idea about.  If someone
finds
> a way to accurately collect on these micropayments then they already
> stopped the spam problem a few steps before the billing cycle.  That
said,
> maybe the concept of making millions on micropayments might just spur
> someone into coming up with a solution. who knows?
>
>
>
> Dave Farber wrote:
>
>
> >Delivered-To: dfarber+ () ux13 sp cs cmu edu
> >Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 09:38:22 -0500
> >From: Seth Finkelstein <sethf () sethf com>
> >Subject: BBC article on spam "solution" of hashcash, from Microsoft
> >To: Dave Farber <dave () farber net>
> >
> >     Dave, BBC News is running an article on Microsoft researchers
> >who are writing reports on the old, old, idea of solving the spam
> >problem by requiring some sort of nontrivial CPU cost or similar time
> >delay for sending an email. As the maintainer of a large mailing
list,
> >I imagine you have an interest in that "solution" :-).
> >
> >http://research.microsoft.com/research/sv/PennyBlack/index.asp
> >
> >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3324883.stm
> >"Microsoft aims to make spammers pay"
> >
> >"The development has been called the Penny Black project, because it
> >works on the idea that revolutionised the British postage system in
> >the 1830s - that senders of mail should have to pay for it, not
> >whoever is on the receiving end."
> >
> >"Stamp of approval"
> >
> >"The basic idea is that we are trying to shift the equation to make
it
> >possible and necessary for a sender to 'pay' for e-mail," explained
> >Ted Wobber of the Microsoft Research group (MSR).
> >
> >"The payment is not made in the currency of money, but in the memory
> >and the computer power required to work out cryptographic puzzles."
> >
> >"For any piece of e-mail I send, it will take a small amount
computing
> >power of about 10 to 20 seconds."
> >
> >"If I don't know you, I have to prove to you that I have spent a
> >little bit of time in resources to send you that e-mail."
>
> --
> Dan Steinberg
>
> SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology
> 35, du Ravin            phone: (613) 794-5356
> Chelsea, Quebec         fax:   (819) 827-4398
> J9B 1N1                 e-mail:synthesis () videotron ca
>
>
>
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