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a bit of "fun" for the cold hours of the east -- re: re:
From: David Farber <farber () central cis upenn edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 20:20:13 -0500
From: Stanton McCandlish <mech () eff org> To: cyber-rights () cpsr org, com-priv () psi com, digitaliberty () phantom com, telecomreg () relay doit wisc edu Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 18:30:02 -0500 (EST) Mark Stahlman (via RadioMail) <stahlman () radiomail net> says:
There's a reason why *both* Gore and Gingrich support the cornerstone of the new "technocracy" -- Universal Access. There's a reason why Gingrich's PFF and (Gore's?) EFF/CDT
Gore is in no way connected with EFF (at all, at all) or CDT (that I know of). There is no EFF/CDT. They are separate organizations. And last I looked, G&G supported universal service, not universal access. There's an order of magnitude difference here: the former is an entitlements program, the latter is a requirement that monopoly and semi-monopoly common carriers with guaranteed profits due to fixed tariffs, provide services on a non-discriminatory basis until fully competitive and deregulated, since they have an enormous pool of funding available via cross subsidizing new endeavors with money from the old monopolized market. Any other way 1) allows them to use, either openly or in roundabout manner, money gouged from the public for universal service to fund their own new playgrounds while providing nothing to the public paying for it, and 2) threatens unregulated would-be competition who don't have $500 billion to throw around. Remember that telcos and the like are not "natural monopolies", but are aberrant monopolies propped up by govt. regulation, and are both willing and capable of taking over entire new markets if given leave to do so. Once they are fully deregulated and competitive, it's really no one's business whether or not they want to serve Harlem or rural Montana. But as long as they are not fully private enterprises and are paying for new technology investment and forays into new markets with money from the public for universal service, its IS everyone's business how that plays out. We've been over all of this before, but I hope it is clearer now. EFF does not support any sort of POTS-type universal service program, nor does EFF support an endless regulatory regime over any media, much less new media. We are only interested in seeing the monopolies build infrastructure that is available to all, if they are to build infrastructure at all. When they are fully private enterprises in competition, then they should be free to do their own thing as they see fit. Most of the language I've seen from G&G, however, does appear to be supportive of an entitlement-type universal service regime, or has at least been vague enough that one cannot be certain they are in fact talking about universal service in anywhere close to the same terms as EFF. This is one of the reasons you didn't see EFF asking anyone to support the Senate telecom competition bill last year.
are collaborating on "privacy" and "property" rights.
EFF has no position on property rights. Never have. It's simply not one of the issues we deal with. See http://www.eff.org/pub/EFF/mission.eff for more details on what we DO work on. The notion that we are collaborating on these issues with PFF is absurd. EFF is studying, internally, intellectual property issues as they relate to the wellbeing of the nets, but we do not have any positions on these issues at present, and they are not even peripherally related to the usual gamut of property law issues, which most often deal with land owners rights vs. environmentalists, and so forth - an area completely outside EFF's sphere or interest. EFF is not in collaboration with PFF on anything. Never have been. The extent of our handshaking with PFF is having some of our board members (Dyson, Barlow, Kapor, maybe another, I don't recall) attend one of their open meetings to see what they are up to and throw in our their views, as did people from most of the other relevant orgs. AFAIK, we, and most everyone else in the world, didn't even know PFF existed until they started running WIRED ads and invited us to a meeting. We've hardly been in some sort of collusion with them.
There's a reason why both EFF/CDT and PFF have the same funding sources.
We do not have the same funding sources. We have some similarities in funding, generally speaking, but that's about it. Considering the nature of the issues we are working on, it's not particularly surprising that all three orgs have some hardware, software, and communications corporate donors. It would be pretty strange if we didn't. However, CDT is not a membership organization. PFF isn't either to my knowledge. Lots of other differences as well (e.g. PFF gets a lot of conservative foundation funding and EFF does not, last I looked.) CDT and EFF have a lot of funding in common, which is also not surprising, since the main funding go-getter for both CDT to date (e.g. the last 2 months) and EFF until Dec. 94, was the same person, with the same contacts.
There's a reason why EFF founder JP Barlow wants to embrace the "darkness",
What do you mean by that? This would appear to be meaningless, unless there's a context I'm missing. Barlow certainly never mentioned anything about embracing the "darkness", whatever that is, at the last board meeting, unless he did it in executive session and I consequently didn't hear it. Of course in that case, you didn't hear it either, so I'm again left wonder just what you mean here.
takes personal responsibility for vetting the FBI's wiretap bill
Re-read his statements on the matter. This is all old rehash. Barlow posted on the WELL, to a support group sort of forum that he'd *felt* responsible, had *felt* like he could stop the bill, and this was a source of stress. He's also said he knew that this feeling was not practical or realistic. (I imagine it was something like the irrational guilt or responsibility one sometimes feels after the death of someone close to you, or any other "heavy" event, a feeling that one should have or could have done more; c.f. the ending of _Schindler's_List_ for a pretty vivid example). At any rate, JPB's messages on the WELL were, against WELL policy, redistributed out of context and filled with Gordon's Cooks' personal (and in this case mistaken) interpretations. Cook would have done better to read the posts, summarize his impressions for himself, then contact Barlow and the rest of the EFF board, as well as other organizations, rather than presuming the perhaps appealing but quite fanciful notion that a retired Wyoming cattle rancher has absolute power over whether a bill passes or not. He failed to do investigative journalism, and instead produced lousy journalism (this is not meant as an attack on Cook, who's technical articles I rather enjoy and have yet to find serious fault with, just an honest observation).
and why he and Kapor were on the panel at PFF's big confab in DC last month.
There is indeed a reason for this: They were invited to do so, and so they did. EFF has a speaker at any number of public and private events all over the world every year, including everything from law school seminars to Computers Freedom and Privacy to Senate hearings, for one reason or another. Expect the number of these appearances to increase. We'll probably also be hosting a series of new conferences over the next 1-2 years as well. I'm not sure why you find something to fingerpoint about here. This is just business as usual - most speaking opportunities we have, that won't cost us an arm and a leg (this is a non-profit org, remember) we accept.
They're all cut from the same cloth. One's plaid and the other's crazy-quilt but it's the same fabric.
What's that supposed to mean?
Tell you what. You do your research and I'll do mine. Let's both report on what we find and then compare the results with reality.
That's a logically broken statement. If your research is not based on reality, what's it based on? How do you do your reasearch and then compare it with reality? Isn't comparing with reality a prerequisite for doing research in the first place? That is, if your research does not square with that of someone else, what would be accomplished by comparing this research with reality, when that research is, by definition, the distilation of your reading of the relevant reality? Whatever... If the research on either side is good, it will not be incompatible with good reasearch on the other side. This is why chemistry works and alchemy doesn't. [Toffler/PFF stuff elided - I don't have any comment on them at present.]
These guys are all professional social engineers and brainwashers. They
Along with the Bilderbergers and the Tri-Lateral Commission? What about the Illuminati?
are using the "future shock" of new technologies to herd a stupified Washington DC into their newly constructed (but with an old blueprint) stockpens. When Gore was on top it was EFF's "Technolologies of Liberation" (from MIT brainwasher Itheil de Sola Pool) and now that
Try "Technologies of Freedom", Ithiel de Sola Pool, and please show me the document where EFF uses this term as a description of our position.
Gingrich has the ball it's Toffler's "Third Wave." And, everyone who's promoting increased government control over *new* technologies is helping them out -- whether they know it or not.
Ever notice EFF supports telecom deregulation, increased cross-competition between cable and telephony markets, opposed the FBI Digital Telephony proposal from day one until ground zero (either by trying to stop the bill outright, or when that failed by excising as much FBI language from the bill as possible and replacing it with new privacy protections - I invite you to compare the versions of the bill at http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/Surveillance/Old/ if you are skeptical), opposed and still opposes the Exon bill (formerly the Exon amendment to last year's telecom bill), refused to sign on with the 90-something non-profits calling for freebie bandwidth for charities and schools. Need I continue?
Did you ever wonder why the "Third Wave" is positioned *against* the very
This is probably obvious, but I'll say it anyway, Toffler, PFF and their "3rd wave" stuff have nothing whatsoever to do with EFF. [more Toffler/PFF stuff elided.]
They've been trying to tell you it's not a left/right thing anymore. It's a non-ideological "technocrat" futures-lib social control thing. Listen up!
This is non-news. Phil Agre already did the investigative reporting that brought PFF's somewhat less than "non-ideological" ties to the light, weeks ago, and widely posted it. EFF on the other hand is not funded by, nor was it founded in cahoots with, nor is it steered by any political party or elected official. You can expect that to remain true indefinitely. We accept no govt funding of any kind either. I'm sorry to be getting involved in an argument with you again Mark, esp. after so much time without having to do so, but I must point out that you can't do "research" on an organization without contacting that organization and learning about it from the inside. Your entire analysis of EFF is based on outside impressions. You don't interview Drew Taubman or David Johnson. You don't contact us for clarification when something in a press release doesn't sound right to you. You don't talk to any of the staff or board about what we are doing at one event or another, but just make assumptions, and then pontificate upon those assumptions as if there were iron-clad fact. This is perhaps why Brock Meeks consistently does better investigation of EFF than you do (and I don't mean this as an insult, just an observation [and I find even brutal honesty to be better than prevarication]). -- http://www.eff.org/~mech/"> Stanton McCandlish mailto:mech () eff org"> mech () eff org http://www.eff.org/"> Electronic Frontier Foundation http://www.eff.org/1.html"> Online Services Mgr.
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