Re: [privacy] U.S. Says Wiretapping Helped Foil Terror Plot in Germany

["Joel R. Helgeson" <joel () helgeson com>]

<Note: Posted to the list by request>
HumInt/SigInt:
Human Intelligence, CIA
Signal Intelligence, NSA

The English have been masters at the spy trade for centuries. In WWII, the
United States felt that it should get into the act and turned to the English
for guidance.
With their tutelage, the CIA became a formidable tool against the Soviet
threat throughout the cold war. We had clearly defined enemies with clearly
defined borders. Gathering intelligence became a methodical science... then,
once the Soviet Union collapsed, the clearly defined enemies with clearly
defined borders went with it.

The growth of the internet created an atmosphere wherein information and
'intelligence' became a commodity. Then the emergence of an enemy that is
not only difficult, if not impossible, to clearly define but who also
operates entirely without borders. The polar opposite from what the CIA were
trained to do.

Not only has this rule-set reset turned the CIA upside-down, it has rendered
it all but useless. The UK isn't doing much better either. The problem is
that western society itself is at odds with the rules required to make an
effective spy agency. Our open government(s), free access to information,
laws against spying on citizens and so forth are what both protect our civil
liberties as well as create the environment in which our enemies can plot
against us.

The CIA knew about al Qaeda operators operating in the USA prior to 9/11,
yet did nothing to notify the FBI. This is because of the opposing nature of
each agency. The CIA finds a criminal and wants to string them along to see
what intelligence they can uncover by monitoring them. When the FBI finds a
criminal, they want to string them up. From the CIA perspective, the FBI
sure knows how to screw up an investigation and destroy your intelligence
network.

The CIA is now dysfunctional to the point of uselessness. In fact, there
isn't a single effective spy agency in the western world. The current battle
we're fighting and the enemy we face is one that cannot be defeated by
military might, it is a war that MUST be fought using intelligence.

So, the administration turned to the only other agency with experience in
gathering and monitoring enemies. It also happens that this agency is
experts at SigInt, as opposed to the HumInt.  The problem is that the NSA is
forbidden by law from spying on American Citizens, UNLESS they are
monitoring overseas communications. This exception has always been allowed,
no warrant necessary. There is no law that states that I have the
constitutional right to conspire with enemies overseas.

No other nation even comes close to the SigInt capabilities of the NSA...

Joel

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Loe [mailto:knobdy () gmail com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 9:35 AM
To: Joel R. Helgeson
Cc: Dave Dittrich; Paul Ferguson; privacy () whitestar linuxbox org
Subject: Re: [privacy] U.S. Says Wiretapping Helped Foil Terror Plot in
Germany

On 9/11/07, Joel R. Helgeson <joel () helgeson com> wrote:

> So, I could see that this story is accurate, that a call from a terror
> supporter communicates with a sleeper cell in the USA - leading to the
> discovery of a plot.
>
> Joel

The argument was always that they only "tapped" calls going overseas -
to either known suspects or countries that are perceived to support
terrorists. This is what has been stopped and prompted the fury to
pass a new law expanding the government's ability to spy on US
citizens (unintended consequence, I'm sure, as any new law will likely
go well beyond what they were doing).

As for the NSA, or CIA or any other group that's not the FBI, they
could always spy on another country. Its not a matter of legality, its
spying. The old tinfoil hat theory was that there are agreements
between several countries to promote this spying. Australia, for
instance, would spy on Americans and in return we would spy on
Australians. Any information gathered would then be shared. No laws
were broken because the Australian government wasn't spying on
Australians and the NSA/CIA wasn't working domestically. One wonders
if there was any truth to this conspiracy theory but if you consider
what has happened on the domestic spying front you would have to guess
not. Why fix something that ain't broken and is secret? Perhaps the
agreed upon spying wasn't involved enough to discover terrorist cells
already here... who knows. I just know I won't like anything that
comes of any new laws on this front.

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