Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 83, Issue 21
From: "Mikhail A. Utin" <mutin () commonwealthcare org>
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:08:02 -0500
Hello List, So far it has been very interesting discussion, but nevertheless nobody went to the Source, which is the Law, and used US Codes (or any others) as reference in the consideration of cases and examples. "To the best of my judgment" does not help too much and we are getting the result as "You are right, and You are right as well". Anybody's going to the Source? Any experience with? It may bring us to the common ground and would be very helpful in future real life cases. Mikhail Utin, CISSP ________________________________________ From: full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk [full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk] On Behalf Of full-disclosure-request () lists grok org uk [full-disclosure-request () lists grok org uk] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:00 AM To: full-disclosure () lists grok org uk Subject: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 83, Issue 21 Send Full-Disclosure mailing list submissions to full-disclosure () lists grok org uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.grok.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/full-disclosure or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to full-disclosure-request () lists grok org uk You can reach the person managing the list at full-disclosure-owner () lists grok org uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Full-Disclosure digest..." Note to digest recipients - when replying to digest posts, please trim your post appropriately. Thank you. Today's Topics: 1. Re: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response (Benjamin Kreuter) 2. Re: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response (Paul Schmehl) 3. Re: Fwd: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response (Paul Schmehl) 4. Re: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response (J. von Balzac) 5. Re: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response (Benjamin Kreuter) 6. Re: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response (Benjamin Kreuter) 7. Re: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response (Michael Schmidt) 8. Re: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response (Paul Schmehl) 9. Re: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response (Laurelai) 10. Re: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response (Gage Bystrom) 11. Re: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response (Paul Schmehl) 12. Re: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response (Benjamin Kreuter) 13. Re: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response (Valdis.Kletnieks () vt edu) 14. Re: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response (Valdis.Kletnieks () vt edu) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:15:44 -0500 From: Benjamin Kreuter <ben.kreuter () gmail com> Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Rate Stratfor's Incident Response To: full-disclosure () lists grok org uk Message-ID: <20120113111544.11bf0cb2 () d-172-27-99-46 bootp virginia edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 23:36:29 +0000 Giles Coochey <giles () coochey net> wrote:
On 12/01/2012 23:30, Byron Sonne wrote:Hello,Bad analogy. Closer would be if you have a house that's got a driveway on a public street, and you claim it's not breaking and entering if you walk up the driveway, try the doorknob, find it unlocked, and let yourself in without the permission of the residents. Saying that "anybody could walk up and let themselves in the door" doesn't make it legal.This is a pretty classic analogy that I've used many times myself, but for many years now I've found myself questioning it... I mean good analogies are valuable, but I think in this case it falls down. Mostly, there's the expectation of physical security or, at least, privacy, when it comes to a house. If someone's rattling door knobs, it's not unreasonable to expect that they could be there to rob or do you harm, as the human race does not have a significant history of peaceful/harmless door rattling practices (that I know of). Now, when it comes to the internet and networks in general, we've entered a whole new world where many old ways of looking at things, tempting as they are, don't fit. There's also no real relevance to fearing for your physical safety if someone's probing your net. To a good extent I might be talking out of my ass here, but I'd welcome feedback.If you go to a website and do a bit of clicking around that's normal behaviour, walking past the house, having a look at the front rose garden etc...
Under some definition of "normal." If you ask me for my DOB and I enter my name, is that normal? Plenty of users make mistakes like that all the time; how do you determine that one was being malicious whereas another just made a routine error? Where do you draw the line? Is it abnormal to try to use a web server as a proxy? Is it abnormal to ask for a directory listing? We all know what we *want* users to do. That is not necessarily what we should expect out of them, and crying about how illegal it is to do something unexpected does nothing to advance the state of computer security.
If you go to a website and do some hand tweaking of the URL to see if you get to stuff that shouldn't be there, well that's trying the doorknob of the house to see if it's locked etc...
So truncating the URL to get a directory listing should be considered an attempt to "break into" a system? I think that is a little extreme.
If you write and/or use a tool to mass check loads of potential URLs... attempt SQL injections etc... you see where I'm going.
So using wget is something that should be considered malicious? Plenty of people use wget and various "download tools" to fetch the entire tree of documents on a website. I think it is a stretch to call that malicious, and I am sure that people have happened upon confidential documents by doing this.
If you use the results of that tool or get lucky with the URL tweaks and take confidential documents or alter records on the backend, well that's just plain theft and/or fraud.
Altering records is certainly fraud or some related crime -- I do not think that the fact that a computer was involved should make any difference here. Downloading a document, however, is another story. Here is something fun (and to the best of my knowledge, completely legal) that you can try: search for "this document is confidential" on Google. Many of the results are related to keeping confidential documents secure...and then some appear to actually be confidential business, legal, or government documents that Google has indexed. Not only has Google indexed these apparently confidential documents, but many of them appear to by cached. Should we conclude that since Google automatically searches for more URLs to index, and then indiscriminately copies the documents it finds, that Google is a massive conspiracy to commit some crime? - -- Ben - -- Benjamin R Kreuter UVA Computer Science brk7bx () virginia edu - -- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email communication and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information for the use of the designated recipients named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error and that any review, disclosure, dissemination, distribution or copying of it or its contents is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please reply to the sender immediately or by telephone at (617) 426-0600 and destroy all copies of this communication and any attachments. For further information regarding Commonwealth Care Alliance's privacy policy, please visit our Internet web site at http://www.commonwealthcare.org. _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Current thread:
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 83, Issue 21 Mikhail A. Utin (Jan 17)
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 83, Issue 21 Valdis . Kletnieks (Jan 17)
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 83, Issue 21 Benjamin Kreuter (Jan 17)
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 83, Issue 21 Valdis . Kletnieks (Jan 17)
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 83, Issue 21 BMF (Jan 17)
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 83, Issue 21 Nick FitzGerald (Jan 18)
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 83, Issue 21 metasansana (Jan 18)
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 83, Issue 21 Valdis . Kletnieks (Jan 18)
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 83, Issue 21 Benjamin Kreuter (Jan 17)
- Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 83, Issue 21 Valdis . Kletnieks (Jan 17)