Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: Salted passwords
From: "Lyal Collins" <lyalc () isp net au>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 15:27:45 +1000
I'm not a crypto guru, but it seems to me that this issue can be crypto-anlayses somewhat like the speedups used to find hash collisions (if I understand them at all). The goal in both cases is to find a hash that 'collides' with a known hash (password hash, or CC number of 6 BIN digits, 9,999,999,999 values and 1 checkdigit) from a known format. i.e pre-compute some portion of the salt+_static_string_portion, then brute-force the remainder of the string. As long as the salt is private or long enough, then does it matter? lyalc -----Original Message----- From: full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk [mailto:full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk] On Behalf Of T Biehn Sent: Tuesday, 11 August 2009 6:51 AM To: Valdis.Kletnieks () vt edu Cc: full-disclosure Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Salted passwords Valdis, I don't have control over the set. Sorry I wasn't more explicit about this. Although, it should have been obvious that the solution needed to satisfy the conditions: Data to one way hash. The set has 9,999,999,999 members. Thanks for your input sweetie! -Travis On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 4:26 PM, <Valdis.Kletnieks () vt edu> wrote:
On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 20:14:57 EDT, T Biehn said:Soliciting random suggestions. Lets say I have data to one-way-hash. The set has 9,999,999,999 members.Actually, if you're using a 10-digit decimal field, you probably have 10**10 possible members - all-zeros counts too (unless there's *other* reasons zero isn't a legal ID). It's those little off-by-one errors that
tend to get you.
;)It's relatively easy to brute force this, or create precomp tables.That's because you only have 10M billion members to brute force against.So you add a salt to each.A better idea cryptographically would be to fix the 10**10 member limit, so that the set *could* have a much higher possible number of members. Even staying at 10 characters, but allowing [A-Za-z0-9] (62 possible chars) raises your space to 62**10 or about 8.3*10**17 (or almost
10M times the difficuly).
That's why most symmetric crypto algorithms use at least 64-bit or even larger keys, and even larger for RSA and similar public-key systems.
-- pgp http://pastebin.com/f6fd606da pgp _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Current thread:
- Salted passwords T Biehn (Aug 09)
- Message not available
- Re: Salted passwords T Biehn (Aug 10)
- Message not available
- Re: Salted passwords Valdis . Kletnieks (Aug 10)
- Re: Salted passwords T Biehn (Aug 10)
- Re: Salted passwords Lyal Collins (Aug 12)
- Re: Salted passwords T Biehn (Aug 10)
- <Possible follow-ups>
- Re: Salted passwords antisec (Aug 10)
- Re: Salted passwords T Biehn (Aug 10)
- Re: Salted passwords raid (Aug 10)
- Re: Salted passwords T Biehn (Aug 10)